Traveller problems

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Hooped
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Re: Traveller problems

Post by Hooped »

ChipbuttyG wrote: 03 Nov 2021 09:32 I think many of these FOI requests aren't worth the paper they're written on.
ROTFPML!!! You said it, pal.
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Re: Traveller problems

Post by ChipbuttyG »

Hooped wrote: 03 Nov 2021 21:13
ChipbuttyG wrote: 03 Nov 2021 09:32 I think many of these FOI requests aren't worth the paper they're written on.
ROTFPML!!! You said it, pal.
Cheers pal!
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Hooped
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Re: Traveller problems

Post by Hooped »

I think you meant answers rather than requests.
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Re: Traveller problems

Post by ChipbuttyG »

Hooped wrote: 04 Nov 2021 10:31 I think you meant answers rather than requests.
I suspect there are many FOI requests that aren't worth the paper they're written on. Mine were though as it exposed the council for wasting taxpayers money!
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Re: Traveller problems

Post by ChipbuttyG »

£2.54m for the site or £181,000 per pitch to accommodate travellers.

If it 'only' cost the council £300,000 over the last 5 years or an average £60,000 a year, why are we giving them a permanent site at such cost?

It would take over 42 years to spend out £2.54m at that rate.

https://www.getreading.co.uk/news/readi ... b72a1f4e80
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Re: Traveller problems

Post by ChipbuttyG »

Apparently the council will get weekly pitch fees from the travellers who stay on this site.

Will that work, or just deter them from using the site and carrying on as normal, staying for free on our public parks? How will they ensure they pay? Given that RBC are owed £77m in unpaid council tax, it could prove difficult getting money out of travellers who are hard to trace. Will it be no fee, no entry? How will they enforce it?

Still seems a huge outlay and continual costs for something that, in the scheme of things costs the taxpayer very little (60k a year) in the current 'predicament'.
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Re: Traveller problems

Post by ChipbuttyG »

I posed some questions to Reading councillor Adele Barnett-Ward but she seems unable to answer them. She basically said, ask Sharma or Gove.
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Re: Traveller problems

Post by Fed-up »

What questions did you ask?
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Re: Traveller problems

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I asked if a mere 14 pitches would be sufficient as the recent illegal encampment on Hills Meadow car park saw at least 18 caravans.

I also asked if she thought spending 42+ years worth of budget on getting a site up and running would prove value for money for the taxpayer.

Also the questions above about payment.
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chris_j_wood
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Re: Traveller problems

Post by chris_j_wood »

Those aren't questions, they are a political manifesto. I'm not surprised she didn't answer them. The first rule of political canvassing is, when you realise that the person you are talking to has already made up their minds against you, to politely step away and move on.

You need to make up your mind whether you want to make a difference, or just want to have fun as a troll. If the former, you need to learn how to ask questions and lobby people in a way likely to change their minds. If the latter, don't change a thing, you are doing just great.
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Re: Traveller problems

Post by Fed-up »

Personally I think they are perfectly valid questions to ask and expect and answer. Not answering them is part of the reason why so many people are disaffected with politicians at the moment.
"Every place that I have been leaves its message on my skin. So many prophecies, so many signs, so little time, so little time" - Alan Prosser/Ian Telfer
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Re: Traveller problems

Post by ChipbuttyG »

Fed-up wrote: 16 Nov 2021 14:17 Personally I think they are perfectly valid questions to ask and expect and answer. Not answering them is part of the reason why so many people are disaffected with politicians at the moment.

Thanks. I appreciate there may be some questions they're unable to answer at this stage but surely one of the first things should be to determine how large the site should be and will 14 pitches be sufficient?

If the recent encampment at Hills Meadow turned up, the council would have to turn away at least 4 caravans. The travellers might then say they're not staying there if they can't all stay there and back to breaking into our parks they go. Which kind of defeats the object of the site.

I believe the council can move illegal encampments on quicker if they have an adequate transit site to offer them. I'm not sure how it stands if a) the travellers are unwilling to pay or b) the site isn't large enough c) if the site is taken by another set of travellers the same problems will persist with taking weeks/months to remove them from our parks with continue anyway.
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Re: Traveller problems

Post by Pooneil »

ChipbuttyG wrote: 08 Nov 2021 11:41£2.54m for the site or £181,000 per pitch to accommodate travellers.

If it 'only' cost the council £300,000 over the last 5 years or an average £60,000 a year, why are we giving them a permanent site at such cost?
Partly because it's a requirement of government policy to provide permanent sites.

"9. Local planning authorities should set pitch targets for gypsies and travellers as defined in Annex 1 and plot targets for travelling showpeople as defined in Annex 1 which address the likely permanent and transit site accommodation needs of travellers in their area, working collaboratively with neighbouring local planning authorities.

10. Local planning authorities should, in producing their Local Plan:
a) identify and update annually, a supply of specific deliverable sites sufficient to provide 5 years’ worth of sites against their locally set targets
b) identify a supply of specific, developable sites, or broad locations for growth, for years 6 to 10 and, where possible, for years 11-15
...
d) relate the number of pitches or plots to the circumstances of the specific size and location of the site and the surrounding population’s size and density
"
(from "Planning policy for traveller sites", August 2015 - Department for Communities and Local Government)

"If planning authorities are unable to demonstrate a five-year supply of deliverable Traveller sites, this in turn may make it more difficult for them to justify reasons for refusing planning applications for temporary pitches at appeal." (House of Commons Library Research Briefing "Gypsies and travellers: planning provisions" Published Thursday, 19 December, 2019)

"The Planning Policy for Traveller Sites must be taken into consideration in preparing local plans and taking planning decisions. It encourages local authorities to formulate their own evidence base for Gypsy and Traveller needs and to provide their own targets relating to pitches required." (House of Commons Library Briefing Paper 08083 "Gypsies and Travellers" Published 9 May, 2019) - given that we have so many that pitch up here so often, clearly we have needs which need to be satisfied, I guess...
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Re: Traveller problems

Post by ChipbuttyG »

chris_j_wood wrote: 16 Nov 2021 14:11 Those aren't questions, they are a political manifesto. I'm not surprised she didn't answer them. The first rule of political canvassing is, when you realise that the person you are talking to has already made up their minds against you, to politely step away and move on.

You need to make up your mind whether you want to make a difference, or just want to have fun as a troll. If the former, you need to learn how to ask questions and lobby people in a way likely to change their minds. If the latter, don't change a thing, you are doing just great.
They are perfectly valid questions Chris.
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Re: Traveller problems

Post by KeithW »

ChipbuttyG wrote: 16 Nov 2021 14:35
They are perfectly valid questions Chris.
Balls they are. Just irritating noise - it wouldn't matter what answers were given, and if any were given it would merely lead to more time-wasting nonsense.

This is a simple example of the logical fallacy known as the loaded question.
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Re: Traveller problems

Post by ChipbuttyG »

Pooneil wrote: 16 Nov 2021 14:32
ChipbuttyG wrote: 08 Nov 2021 11:41£2.54m for the site or £181,000 per pitch to accommodate travellers.

If it 'only' cost the council £300,000 over the last 5 years or an average £60,000 a year, why are we giving them a permanent site at such cost?
Partly because it's a requirement of government policy to provide permanent sites.

"9. Local planning authorities should set pitch targets for gypsies and travellers as defined in Annex 1 and plot targets for travelling showpeople as defined in Annex 1 which address the likely permanent and transit site accommodation needs of travellers in their area, working collaboratively with neighbouring local planning authorities.

10. Local planning authorities should, in producing their Local Plan:
a) identify and update annually, a supply of specific deliverable sites sufficient to provide 5 years’ worth of sites against their locally set targets
b) identify a supply of specific, developable sites, or broad locations for growth, for years 6 to 10 and, where possible, for years 11-15
...
d) relate the number of pitches or plots to the circumstances of the specific size and location of the site and the surrounding population’s size and density
"
(from "Planning policy for traveller sites", August 2015 - Department for Communities and Local Government)

"If planning authorities are unable to demonstrate a five-year supply of deliverable Traveller sites, this in turn may make it more difficult for them to justify reasons for refusing planning applications for temporary pitches at appeal." (House of Commons Library Research Briefing "Gypsies and travellers: planning provisions" Published Thursday, 19 December, 2019)

"The Planning Policy for Traveller Sites must be taken into consideration in preparing local plans and taking planning decisions. It encourages local authorities to formulate their own evidence base for Gypsy and Traveller needs and to provide their own targets relating to pitches required." (House of Commons Library Briefing Paper 08083 "Gypsies and Travellers" Published 9 May, 2019) - given that we have so many that pitch up here so often, clearly we have needs which need to be satisfied, I guess...
Adele Barnett-Ward said “Every single local Council is obliged under national planning policy to consider how gypsy and traveller accommodation needs can be met"

The key word there is "consider". She didn't say the council must provide a permanent site.

We have so many that pitch up here so often due to the council's inaction at properly securing our parks, they even roll out the red carpet and provide toilets for them (Caravans have toilets). It's no wonder they return, time and time again. If the council are simply going to replace a broken lock with a new lock, the illegal encampments will keep happening. As we've seen continually around Reading.

As far as I'm aware there is no statutory requirement for a transit site. Also, over the last decade there had been an increase in the number of permanent pitches and latest figures showed of the available transit pitches, more than a third were vacant.
Last edited by ChipbuttyG on 17 Nov 2021 08:21, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Traveller problems

Post by ChipbuttyG »

KeithW wrote: 16 Nov 2021 14:46
ChipbuttyG wrote: 16 Nov 2021 14:35
They are perfectly valid questions Chris.
Balls they are. Just irritating noise - it wouldn't matter what answers were given, and if any were given it would merely lead to more time-wasting nonsense.

This is a simple example of the logical fallacy known as the loaded question.
I'm sure they've discussed the size of the site and the number of pitches.

So why is asking if the site of 14 pitches is large enough given that the recent encampment on Hills Meadow car park saw at least 18 caravans not a valid question Keith?
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Re: Traveller problems

Post by KeithW »

ChipbuttyG wrote: 16 Nov 2021 14:51
KeithW wrote: 16 Nov 2021 14:46
ChipbuttyG wrote: 16 Nov 2021 14:35
They are perfectly valid questions Chris.
Balls they are. Just irritating noise - it wouldn't matter what answers were given, and if any were given it would merely lead to more time-wasting nonsense.

This is a simple example of the logical fallacy known as the loaded question.
I'm sure they've discussed the size of the site and the number of pitches.

So why is asking if the site of 14 pitches is large enough given that the recent encampment on Hills Meadow car park saw at least 18 caravans not a valid question Keith?
Have you stopped beating your wife?
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Re: Traveller problems

Post by ChipbuttyG »

KeithW wrote: 16 Nov 2021 15:30
ChipbuttyG wrote: 16 Nov 2021 14:51
KeithW wrote: 16 Nov 2021 14:46

Balls they are. Just irritating noise - it wouldn't matter what answers were given, and if any were given it would merely lead to more time-wasting nonsense.

This is a simple example of the logical fallacy known as the loaded question.
I'm sure they've discussed the size of the site and the number of pitches.

So why is asking if the site of 14 pitches is large enough given that the recent encampment on Hills Meadow car park saw at least 18 caravans not a valid question Keith?
Have you stopped beating your wife?
Can somebody tell me what this response is about?
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Re: Traveller problems

Post by KeithW »

ChipbuttyG wrote: 17 Nov 2021 08:19
KeithW wrote: 16 Nov 2021 15:30
ChipbuttyG wrote: 16 Nov 2021 14:51

I'm sure they've discussed the size of the site and the number of pitches.

So why is asking if the site of 14 pitches is large enough given that the recent encampment on Hills Meadow car park saw at least 18 caravans not a valid question Keith?
Have you stopped beating your wife?
Can somebody tell me what this response is about?
You are holding, or perhaps sitting in front of, a portal to a vast, unprecedented source of information. If you genuinely don't understand the response (which I doubt, feigning innocence is part of your MO), I'm not going to waste time educating you.
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Re: Traveller problems

Post by ChipbuttyG »

KeithW wrote: 17 Nov 2021 09:34
ChipbuttyG wrote: 17 Nov 2021 08:19
KeithW wrote: 16 Nov 2021 15:30

Have you stopped beating your wife?
Can somebody tell me what this response is about?
You are holding, or perhaps sitting in front of, a portal to a vast, unprecedented source of information. If you genuinely don't understand the response (which I doubt, feigning innocence is part of your MO), I'm not going to waste time educating you.

I think I'll cease further interaction with you Keith. We've gone from discussing a traveller transit site to beating wives. It's all rather odd.
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Re: Traveller problems

Post by KeithW »

ChipbuttyG wrote: 17 Nov 2021 09:49
KeithW wrote: 17 Nov 2021 09:34
ChipbuttyG wrote: 17 Nov 2021 08:19

Can somebody tell me what this response is about?
You are holding, or perhaps sitting in front of, a portal to a vast, unprecedented source of information. If you genuinely don't understand the response (which I doubt, feigning innocence is part of your MO), I'm not going to waste time educating you.

I think I'll cease further interaction with you Keith. We've gone from discussing a traveller transit site to beating wives. It's all rather odd.
Like I said, part of your MO. Ask Jamie B.
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Re: Traveller problems

Post by ChipbuttyG »

For clarity, I have never beaten my wife, any female or person for that matter. It's such a shame discussion, whether you agree with someone or not has come to this.

I think it best if the mods delete Keith's post and do what they do with warnings/banning.
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Re: Traveller problems

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I'm rather hoping they will do exactly what they do with banning, to be honest.
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Re: Traveller problems

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Have you stopped beating your wife? - Is a logical fallacy or loaded question and nothing to do with an insult!
Oldman........

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they annoyed me........................

I hug everybody –
It’s not affection, I’m just measuring up how big a hole I need to dig for the body!
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Re: Traveller problems

Post by ChipbuttyG »

OLDMAN wrote: 17 Nov 2021 12:51 Have you stopped beating your wife? - Is a logical fallacy or loaded question and nothing to do with an insult!
Not everyone knows that.
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Re: Traveller problems

Post by OLDMAN »

ChipbuttyG wrote: 17 Nov 2021 12:54
OLDMAN wrote: 17 Nov 2021 12:51 Have you stopped beating your wife? - Is a logical fallacy or loaded question and nothing to do with an insult!
Not everyone knows that.
Agree - which is why I have explained it to any that don't understand
Oldman........

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they annoyed me........................

I hug everybody –
It’s not affection, I’m just measuring up how big a hole I need to dig for the body!
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Re: Traveller problems

Post by ChipbuttyG »

OLDMAN wrote: 17 Nov 2021 12:55
ChipbuttyG wrote: 17 Nov 2021 12:54
OLDMAN wrote: 17 Nov 2021 12:51 Have you stopped beating your wife? - Is a logical fallacy or loaded question and nothing to do with an insult!
Not everyone knows that.
Agree - which is why I have explained it to any that don't understand
Thanks. So it's fairly poor form to post such a response in this day and age.
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Re: Traveller problems

Post by Fed-up »

OM - The question should have been posted with more verbage around it because it just comes across as a personal insult as part of a personal vendetta from KeithW, especially when taken in conjunction with other posts by Keith later in this thread.
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Re: Traveller problems

Post by KeithW »

Fed-up wrote: 17 Nov 2021 13:04 OM - The question should have been posted with more verbage around it because it just comes across as a personal insult as part of a personal vendetta from KeithW, especially when taken in conjunction with other posts by Keith later in this thread.
I contend that ChipbuttyG/Tommy/Melchett/Jamie B knows full well the context and meaning of the quote. He is certainly not stupid, but feigns ignorance/innocence when it suits.
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Re: Traveller problems

Post by Fed-up »

KeithW wrote: 17 Nov 2021 13:34
Fed-up wrote: 17 Nov 2021 13:04 OM - The question should have been posted with more verbage around it because it just comes across as a personal insult as part of a personal vendetta from KeithW, especially when taken in conjunction with other posts by Keith later in this thread.
I contend that ChipbuttyG/Tommy/Melchett/Jamie B knows full well the context and meaning of the quote. He is certainly not stupid, but feigns ignorance/innocence when it suits.
If you have proof then please let the Admins/Mods know because it is against the forum rules. If you don't have proof then please give it a rest because it is getting boring now and very much :offtopic1:
"Every place that I have been leaves its message on my skin. So many prophecies, so many signs, so little time, so little time" - Alan Prosser/Ian Telfer
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Re: Traveller problems

Post by KeithW »

Fed-up wrote: 17 Nov 2021 13:40
If you have proof then please let the Admins/Mods know because it is against the forum rules. If you don't have proof then please give it a rest because it is getting boring now and very much :offtopic1:
Proof of what?
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Re: Traveller problems

Post by windrush »

Well I have lived for almost 71 years, most of it in industry, and never have I come across that expression? :? I would hate for anyone to accuse me of it.

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Re: Traveller problems

Post by ChipbuttyG »

windrush wrote: 17 Nov 2021 13:55 Well I have lived for almost 71 years, most of it in industry, and never have I come across that expression? :? I would hate for anyone to accuse me of it.

Pete.
Me neither Pete. I had to check it out. Naturally I was a bit aghast to begin with. There will certainly be others who've never heard that expression either.

Keith is now asserting that I knew the expression. I didn't.
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Re: Traveller problems

Post by piwacket »

Please can we now draw a line under this discussion on that phrase and move on. It was unfortunate that the meaning was ‘lost’ and taken in the wrong way, or just not understood. u]that[/u]

Thankyou
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