COVID-19: The Politics

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Voiceoftreason?
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

Post by Voiceoftreason? »

mikejee wrote: 10 Feb 2022 18:38
Voiceoftreason? wrote: 10 Feb 2022 15:09 Not being facetious, Chris, but who do you suggest replaces him?

Got to be honest, influential, statesman (or woman) esque, well liked and supported by colleagues, squeaky clean and credible. Answers on a postcard please.
Well a start would be to have never been to Eton , Harrow or the like. This would thus ensure there being at least some chance that they do not think themselves immune to criticism or some sort of superior being ., as opposed to the truth that they are likely to be an obnoxious p888k
It would also likely mean that they had knowledge in something useful rather than Latin, Greek or , worst of all, PPE (Politics, Philosophy & Economics)
Ok, but that’s an opinion, not a person. Who in Government, or an MP in the UK - anywhere in the UK, would satisfy your list? What name or names, can you offer MJ?
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

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Any of the leaders of the other main political parties, or a large proportion of Tory MPs, obviously excluding most of the mob that inhabit the cabinet room today. When cutting out an infection one has to accept that one cannot always get the best result, but if the infection is not removed then the patient is likely to become more ill. The US "democracy" is already in serious trouble and the almostTrumpian-like behaviour of Johnson is leading towards the same thing here.
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

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And it does seem John Major has similar ideas to mine
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

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mikejee wrote: 10 Feb 2022 18:54 Any of the leaders of the other main political parties, or a large proportion of Tory MPs, obviously excluding most of the mob that inhabit the cabinet room today. When cutting out an infection one has to accept that one cannot always get the best result, but if the infection is not removed then the patient is likely to become more ill. The US "democracy" is already in serious trouble and the almostTrumpian-like behaviour of Johnson is leading towards the same thing here.
Yes but who. Who precisely meets both mine and your preferred standards? Whois electable? Who is a potential leader?

With respect, It’s unfair to tar everyone with the same brush so you cannot exclude ‘a large proportion of Tory MPs’ just like that. There simply isn’t the evidence to do so, and defamatory, if I may be so bold. Likewise every member of any other party isn’t by default, innocent of wrongdoing because they are NOT Tory’s.

Forget about parties, think of people as individuals. So who? Who is the man, or woman, for the job?

As for the US, well, that’s their problem - not ours.
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

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With respect, it very much is our problem, as troublemakers have already seized on the tactics used by Trumps supporters.
I would agree completely. As I believe I have stated before, the problem is the party system, where manipulators get together and decisions are made not with regard to the desires of actual voters, but with regard to what party funders want, whether it be impractical wage rises, or the financial fortunes of large, often dubious companies. I agree that there is no very obvious candidate, but ,even with doubt as to success, a cancer should be lanced, less it infects the whole body. John Major has the right attitude, but, like me, is a bit ancient. Starmer does not exactly inspire, but is not morally corrupt. Sturgeon is probably the best candidate if It were possible, which it obviously is not.
As to excluding a large number of Tory MPs- a large number are either supporters of Johnson and his activities or are easily suborned by him. That means they either agree that he is correct in his behavior or else that it does not matter as long as they keep their seats and sinecures as long as possible. That is scarcely the sort of people you want to have any influence on the country
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

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Let’s just focus on this country, and this question shall we.

Ok, so Major, Starmer and Sturgeon then. What does anyone else think - any other names?
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

Post by C.A.Versham »

In a way I'm inclined to think that anyone who actually wants the job of PM would not be the best person to take it on. Waking up every morning to have to hear some new issue to deal with and the media behaving like a pack of hunting dogs analysing everything you have ever done, said or written must be some sort of definition of hell. Why on earth do it? Why not get paid twice as much to run a few schools, a hospital trust or as an IT consultant?

Anyway, some outsiders might be Mr Tugendhat, Ms Mordaunt or our very own Mr Sharma. Unlike US Presidents we don't get to vote for them (unless we are card carrying party members) so it's rather academic.

Oh and as for Ms Sturgeon I cannot quite see why she gets such an adoring ride from many in the UK media. Her parties' record on many things for which they are fully responsible is questionable although they always seem to blame the UK government for their lack of money.
Last edited by C.A.Versham on 11 Feb 2022 09:39, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

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:goodposting:
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

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mikejee wrote: 10 Feb 2022 18:38
Voiceoftreason? wrote: 10 Feb 2022 15:09 Not being facetious, Chris, but who do you suggest replaces him?

Got to be honest, influential, statesman (or woman) esque, well liked and supported by colleagues, squeaky clean and credible. Answers on a postcard please.
Well a start would be to have never been to Eton , Harrow or the like. This would thus ensure there being at least some chance that they do not think themselves immune to criticism or some sort of superior being ., as opposed to the truth that they are likely to be an obnoxious p888k
It would also likely mean that they had knowledge in something useful rather than Latin, Greek or , worst of all, PPE (Politics, Philosophy & Economics)
Whilst PPE (the degree, not the medical acronym) was indeed the posh universities' 20th century equivalent of Media Studies, there's nothing wrong with Latin or Greek (and I speak as somebody with an engineering degree who spends much of his work life slaving over hot spreadsheets). I think the problem was best summed up by this letter to Private Eye last July.
E6zSIzbWYAUb6fu.jpg
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

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Poo
Indeed, there is nothing wrong with Latin & Greek as something to study. Indeed, if I was to have gone into archeology as a career , which I do find very interesting, then it is likely to have been very useful, but there is plenty wrong with the ridiculous fallacy propounded by some, that it is useful in normal modern life and as a "discipline" that helps develop character and similar rubbish. Other humanities are essential components of life, but Latin and Greek are only of use in limited areas.
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

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Have just realised that confirmation as to some of my earlier comments have been greatly confirmed by the fact that Liz Truss's degree at Oxford was PPE
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

Post by C.A.Versham »

Both my younglings took degrees in classics and have gone on to do well in the private sector. They studied the influence of the ancients on law, theatre, politics and religion. Fascinating stuff which broadened their outlook.

As for flexibility, those with engineering degrees can easily become politicians but very few if any with a politics degree become engineers!

A bit off topic this so sorry.
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

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Indeed, Cav. Latin is helpful, sometimes a requirement, for careers in medicine, pharmacy and pharmacology. In the Sciences, music and arts. For Linguistics. For the Law, and of course, teaching.

Yes off topic, but relevant. Higher education, to me, proves you can listen, learn and apply that knowledge. It’s a mark of your staying power to complete the course. Yes there are Micky mouse courses, but in the main, not. Let’s not denigrate those that have been through that process. One Degree is no more valuable than another in the bigger picture, IMHO.

I’ve not been to Uni, I’ve done mine another way. There was no prospect for me going as there was no money for that and I had to work. I don’t begrudge those that have been - I made sure mine had the opportunity to do so - my cash my choice 🤷🏻‍♀️

The best qualification for any role, is a Masters in Life with a Distinction in the area of common sense.

A rare animal indeed.
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

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It’s not the degree that’s the problem, it’s those graduates who never grew up and went straight into politics or journalism as a precursor to a political career. That’s not a criticism of journalists, just some politicians. At least Liz Truss worked in commerce and qualified as a management accountant, so I guess she should be able to do the job competently, even if not the way I’d like it to be done, but I don’t expect to have the chance to influence who does until 2024.
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

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A friend and fellow Club member of ours fancies himself as a back room politician, when covid broke he was up in arms about events and shows being cancelled as it was all an act of stupidity by the PM and his advisors and he wasn't going to mask up or change his lifestyle for anyone and the nation should carry on as normal and face it out. Then yesterday he was on the Jeremy Vine radio 2 show saying that Boris has it wrong and things shouldn't be easing, people were still dying in their hundreds and events shouldn't be taking place and masks should be worn wherever possible! Maybe he SHOULD go into politics after all, he seems to go wherever his belly guides him and his backside persuades him! :whistle1:

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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

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The real problem is, IMHO, that you can’t be everything to everyone. MPs and people in Government are on a hiding to nothing, no matter what colour their flag.

Mick’s comment about people never growing up (as an example, nothing more, no criticism implied) is an opinion, his opinion. Just that. It has no basis in fact - IIRC no MP or person in Government is in nappies or can’t walk or read etc, (steady on there!) so they all have, in fact, grown up. The crux of his post is ‘might not do the job the way I’d like it to be done’. Doesn’t that hit the nail in the head?

Whatever toy do or don’t do, Will cheese SOMEONE off.

In reality, it’s academic, no pun intended, where they went to school, what uni or degree they have or don’t have. Whilst it might influence your opinion of them as a person, it isn’t relevant to what they do in their job. Yes you’re more likely to be an MP or in Government if you went to a good school and/or did well at school, then went on to uni and/or by virtue of your family background, moved in circles that were more likely to lead you towards a career in politics. But you still have to,put the work in. No one gives it to you on a plate, despite what many think.

You still have to physically do the job. There is no bar to Fred or Freda Bloggs in the street, following the same path if they so desire. Yes there are barriers in their way, yes it will be harder, yes they may not have friends in high or low places, but no one is stopping anyone going for a political career, are they?

On the flip side, do we want our leaders, MPs and members of Government to be uneducated dolts? Don’t they need certain skills to work in the area of politics, with a big and a little P? Being an MP and especially in the higher levels of Government, is, I believe, a lifelong path. For some, it starts way before they were born, with family money. For some it doesn’t - but let’s not be naive, there’s no such thing as a poor MP or high ranking Government Officer of ANY party. Tony Blair was a wealthy man, his wife a highly paid barrister. I’m sure you can supply your own examples from any party you care to name.

Yes it would be better if they had a relevant background such that they were more able to understand finance, for example, or commerce. But that is what they have advisors for - they don’t do all the donkey work themselves. They’re a figurehead, much like the Queen is, they are not Governemnt embodied in a single person.

It sets my teeth on edge to hear, see and read about the vitriol that’s aimed towards our public savants - big and small. Indeed we’ve seen that on this forum with posts about local MPs. Can you imagine what that’s like to live with that, every day, and your family have it too? It’s been the demise of more than one MP IIRC.

Boris is many things, but at the moment he is the Prime Minister. What he has or has not done during the pandemic and either side of it, will live with him forever. I think that’s enough to carry as it is, don’t you?
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

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Voiceoftreason? wrote: 11 Feb 2022 14:52 - they don’t do all the donkey work themselves. They’re a figurehead, much like the Queen is, they are not Governemnt embodied in a single person.
But that is the point why many have such a low opinion of Boris. He has no practical knowledge of anything himself. As you say, others do the donkey work. He then ignores that for as long as he can without endangering his position (he hopes) and then makes decisions, not on the facts as are likely to be recommended by his experts who know what they are talking about, but on his own position and how it might best benefit him and his party
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

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mikejee wrote: 11 Feb 2022 15:05
Voiceoftreason? wrote: 11 Feb 2022 14:52 - they don’t do all the donkey work themselves. They’re a figurehead, much like the Queen is, they are not Governemnt embodied in a single person.
But that is the point why many have such a low opinion of Boris. He has no practical knowledge of anything himself. As you say, others do the donkey work. He then ignores that for as long as he can without endangering his position (he hopes) and then makes decisions, not on the facts as are likely to be recommended by his experts who know what they are talking about, but on his own position and how it might best benefit him and his party
Does he though? How do we know he ignores the advice? Would his myriad advisors and civil servants truly allow him to make a detrimental decision - all the MPs and cabinet members have influence as well. It sounds a bit one person State to say he does what he wants.

What do you want him to have practical knowledge of? Neither he, nor anyone else, can possibly know it all. A leader doesn’t necessarily HAVE to have practical knowledge - I’m sure Putin doesn’t have in depth knowledge of every nuance of political station and Trump certainly had no idea how to behave in high office - they need good advisors. Yes Boris, or any other PM, has the ultimate say but I’m not convinced he goes against what would presumably be a largeish a number of subject experts, are telling him to do. For a start, if he really is that thick, he wouldn’t know how to formulate a viable alternative, now would he. We will never really know.

The same way as we will never really know what Blair was told to do, as opposed to what he did do. Or Major. Or Thatcher. Or Churchill.........
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

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Well I think it can definitely be stated that Trump took little notice of advisors except those with his own corrupt political views . The number of advisors keeping a distance now including one he has been very close to for years is also pretty obvious. But you are certainly correct about the other examples you mention.
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

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Think we can agree about Trump. And yes I know I’ve contradicted myself, but the thought of that man with his finger on the red button....😳
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

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Voiceoftreason? wrote: 11 Feb 2022 15:13 Does he though? How do we know he ignores the advice? ...
We can never know for sure. But the evidence has built now to an extent that it is hard to ignore.

And people who have a great deal more knowledge about how government works clearly share that belief. Try listening to this speech by John Major, who has actually done the job, for example. He is very careful not to cross boundaries into things he doesn't or cannot know, and gives a very measured and thoughtful description of his current concerns.

Further up, you asked 'who else could take over'. Well, maybe if you do listen to this, you might find your answer from within.

Here is the video. It is an hour long, by the way, so make yourself a coffee and get confortable first, as it is worth listening right the way through:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cRH0XYGWHvk
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

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I’ll hear that later, thanks Chris.

Unfortunately for me, John Major lost credibility when he shagged Edwina Curry. Alledgedly. That’s evidence of bad decision making right there.
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

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Major 1 shag
Johnson A whole flock of shags
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

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mikejee wrote: 11 Feb 2022 16:08 Major 1 shag
Johnson A whole flock of shags
Haha. I bet Poo can tell us what the collective noun for a flock of shags is.

Chris - have listened to the speech part, not the Q and A after yet. He makes some good points. Can’t say I agree on all he says - the illegal immigrants crossing the channel, for example - but it’s mostly a valid set of arguments he makes. He makes a case (and I paraphrase) for not criminalising their actions on account of the fact that it’s not a crime to be scared, or oppressed, or want to be safe etc and be punished for fleeing their country of origin and making an unregulated crossing, by up to four years in prison.

No it’s not a crime to be afraid and the rest of it, but I think the clue is in the illegal part of the illegal immigrant. There are established processes and procedures to deal with that. And more over, that there are organised gangs behind the crossings. They need to be stopped before they get here as that’s exploitation/trafficking and part of the problem.

The other problem is, unfortunately John Major was always somewhat grey, and I struggle to pick out anything he did that has stayed in my memory.....
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

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mikejee wrote: 11 Feb 2022 16:08 Major 1 shag
Johnson A whole flock of shags
It didn't appear to harm JFK's period in office, Boris is a mere amateur compared to him and his male relatives! :-) Off topic I realise......

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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

Post by Mayfield »

windrush wrote: 11 Feb 2022 19:02
mikejee wrote: 11 Feb 2022 16:08 Major 1 shag
Johnson A whole flock of shags
It didn't appear to harm JFK's period in office, Boris is a mere amateur compared to him and his male relatives! :-) Off topic I realise......

Pete.

I may be wrong butI suspect it was just the political elite who knew about JFK, at the time … the world, literally, and it’s wife , know about Johnson…


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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

Post by chris_j_wood »

Voiceoftreason? wrote: 10 Feb 2022 18:43 Not being facetious, Chris, but who do you suggest replaces him?
Given that for practical reasons it has to be a Conservative, with a history of public popularity and (given the need to deal with Vlad) some understanding of realpolitik, here is another suggestion.

FB_IMG_1644675011965.jpg
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

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Voiceoftreason? wrote: 11 Feb 2022 15:13

Does he though? How do we know he ignores the advice? Would his myriad advisors and civil servants truly allow him to make a
The whole reason for his chief political advisor resigned is that she told him not to bring up Saville at PMQ’s.
It also proves that the allegation (which is untrue) was planned in advance and din’t “slip out”

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/munir ... er-1441547
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

Post by Mayfield »

I know Rishi is a millionaire, but he has a pretty ordinary back ground….and on the plus side he isn’t a proven liar , well maybe some if his political foretelling hasn’t come to pass but in general.

As long as we don’t get Liz Truss ….
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

Post by Voiceoftreason? »

chris_j_wood wrote: 12 Feb 2022 14:16
Voiceoftreason? wrote: 10 Feb 2022 18:43 Not being facetious, Chris, but who do you suggest replaces him?
Given that for practical reasons it has to be a Conservative, with a history of public popularity and (given the need to deal with Vlad) some understanding of realpolitik, here is another suggestion.


FB_IMG_1644675011965.jpg
Thanks. Had to look him up - I don’t follow politics as such. Not a bad suggestion. As I was reading his Wiki page, it said he superseded by Alok Sharma.

Now how about Alok for PM? One of our own? Or don’t you think he’s ready yet?
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

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dave m wrote: 12 Feb 2022 14:43
Voiceoftreason? wrote: 11 Feb 2022 15:13

Does he though? How do we know he ignores the advice? Would his myriad advisors and civil servants truly allow him to make a
The whole reason for his chief political advisor resigned is that she told him not to bring up Saville at PMQ’s.
It also proves that the allegation (which is untrue) was planned in advance and din’t “slip out”

https://inews.co.uk/news/politics/munir ... er-1441547
Fair point. I either missed, or didn’t know, that. Thanks Dave.
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

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Rory Stewart’s tweet echoes Max Hastings recent Times article (Tuesday’s, if you can get behind the paywall). Of the successors of deposed PMs only MacMillan comes out reasonably well, he says. Who remembers “You’ve never had it so good”? They all inherited a bleak situation, had a torrid time, aren’t judged kindly by many now and most lost the next election. That won’t put many off, though. It seems it will be either Rishi or Liz, given the rest of the pack are some way behind. Both are surely an improvement, but as Hastings says will the new leader be capable of bringing together what he calls the Internationalists and the English Nationalists in the Tory party. Good luck with that. And where is Alok Sharma these days? Flying around trying to ensure that some countries do actually implement COP26.
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

Post by dave m »

Also - the people who cross the channel in boats are not “illegal immigrants” until they land and fail to apply for asylum.
Simply crossing on a ferry, rubber dingy or jet ski is not illegal and never has been.
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

Post by ChipbuttyG »

dave m wrote: 13 Feb 2022 16:11 Also - the people who cross the channel in boats are not “illegal immigrants” until they land and fail to apply for asylum.
Simply crossing on a ferry, rubber dingy or jet ski is not illegal and never has been.
Citizens Advice says "You’ll be living here illegally if you came to the UK without permission".
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

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ChipbuttyG wrote: 14 Feb 2022 09:03
dave m wrote: 13 Feb 2022 16:11 Also - the people who cross the channel in boats are not “illegal immigrants” until they land and fail to apply for asylum.
Simply crossing on a ferry, rubber dingy or jet ski is not illegal and never has been.
Citizens Advice says "You’ll be living here illegally if you came to the UK without permission".
But as Dave points out ONLY if they land - bit like the channel swimmer who got to France only to be told their visa hadn’t gone through so couldn’t set foot on land otherwise they would be arrested as for it
They had to get on the back-up boat and come straight home!
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