COVID-19: The Politics

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ChipbuttyG
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

Post by ChipbuttyG »

Pooneil wrote: 19 Jan 2022 11:21
ChipbuttyG wrote: 19 Jan 2022 10:29Didn't Beth Rigby break Covid lockdown rules?
And your point is?
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C.A.Versham
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

Post by C.A.Versham »

I assume that the no confidence letter sent by the former red wall Tory MP (majority 402, involved in issues concerning continuing to claim local council allowances after being elected as an MP) who has just defected to Labour will no longer count.
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

Post by ChipbuttyG »

@Andrew_Kennedy via Twitter...

I recently sat next to Christian Wakeford MP at a dinner in the East India Club. He proudly told me that he won due to the support of 95%+ of his town's large Jewish population, who hated the thought of a Socialist government. I wonder how they feel about his double standards.
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

Post by MickEdge »

Mayfield wrote: 19 Jan 2022 11:37 Give me a bucket of magnolia and I’ll be thrilled to fix it for the next resident 🙂
Or you could use this which caught my eye. There’s a new paint colour from Farrow & Ball called Sue Gray. A light colour and if applied too thinly may look like whitewash.
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

Post by chris_j_wood »

David Davies channels Leo Amery during PMQs:
You have sat too long here for any good you have been doing. Depart, I say, and let us have done with you. In the name of God, go!
The quote is originally from Oliver Cromwell, but Davies chose to cite Amery's use of it against Chamberlain. Presumably because that delivery is largely credited with propelling Chamberlain from office and his replacement by Churchill. Will we look back on this in the same way as we do on Amery's original, I wonder.

Of course Davies is a rather broken messenger. But then so was the Amery family. One of Leo's sons (Julian) went on to be a minister under Thatcher, but the other (John) was hanged for treason, having spent the war touring POW camps in Germany trying to recruit British prisoners to join a British branch of the Waffen SS. To the credit of the prisoners, he was almost entirely unsuccessful.
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

Post by Pooneil »

ChipbuttyG wrote: 19 Jan 2022 13:58 @Andrew_Kennedy via Twitter...

I recently sat next to Christian Wakeford MP at a dinner in the East India Club. He proudly told me that he won due to the support of 95%+ of his town's large Jewish population, who hated the thought of a Socialist government. I wonder how they feel about his double standards.
Opinion polls notwithstanding, at the time of Wakeford's election in 2019, the prospect of a socialist government under a Corbyn-led Labour Party was at least a theoretical worry, albeit the inertia of the system would have limited the speed and scope of the introduction of socialist policies. Now, with the Labour Party under Starmer, the Corbynistas hugely marginalised and in some cases even purged, worries about an actually socialist government are probably worth less concern than worries about a zombie apocalypse or werewolf proliferation.
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

Post by MickEdge »

Pooneil wrote: 20 Jan 2022 07:00
ChipbuttyG wrote: 19 Jan 2022 13:58 @Andrew_Kennedy via Twitter...

I recently sat next to Christian Wakeford MP at a dinner in the East India Club. He proudly told me that he won due to the support of 95%+ of his town's large Jewish population, who hated the thought of a Socialist government. I wonder how they feel about his double standards.
Opinion polls notwithstanding, at the time of Wakeford's election in 2019, the prospect of a socialist government under a Corbyn-led Labour Party was at least a theoretical worry, albeit the inertia of the system would have limited the speed and scope of the introduction of socialist policies. Now, with the Labour Party under Starmer, the Corbynistas hugely marginalised and in some cases even purged, worries about an actually socialist government are probably worth less concern than worries about a zombie apocalypse or werewolf proliferation.
A quick look at the Labour Party website finds only one reference to socialist, under affiliated organisations, which interestingly includes the Jewish Labour Movement. I also did a quick look at the Conservative Party website, in their code of conduct were these two little gems: Integrity – Holders of public office must avoid placing themselves under any obligation to people or organisations that might try inappropriately to influence them in their work. and Honesty – Holders of public office should be truthful.
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

Post by C.A.Versham »

Was the issue the fear of 'socialism' or concerns about perceived antisemitism that caused the Jewish voters in his constituency to either stay at home or vote other than Labour? Didn't the previous MP also stand as an independent taking a 1000 odd votes which may have gone Labour's way? Either way the defection seems to have quietened things temporarily for Mr Johnson.
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

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Now, I understand almost zero abut Politics so I may be being dense.

By all means cross, and re-cross the floor to whichever side your conscience takes you, but..... Did not the voters of the defecting MP, vote for his Party and not Labour? Is it ‘legal’ for him to represent another party when he’s been voted into office by his constituents for a different party?

If I were one of the people that voted for him, I’d be mightily cheesed off that he was now a labour bod not a conservative. That wasn’t the party I voted for as represented by him. Is there a deputy Conservative waiting in the wings in that constituency to replace him or something?

Does he take his voters with him or is he an MP that hasn’t been voted in by labour voters? I don’t understand! :banghead:
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

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Voiceoftreason? wrote: 20 Jan 2022 09:11 Is it ‘legal’ for him to represent another party when he’s been voted into office by his constituents for a different party?
The answer is yes. Worth noting - and with no sense of irony - Wakeford, in 2020, co-sponsored and voted for a private members bill that would "enable the recall of Members of the House of Commons who voluntarily change their political party affiliation; and for connected purposes.”
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

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I think his calculation was that his voters are very sick of Boris and would back him ….We’ll see, though I suspect Sue Grays enquiry will be just an expensive waste of time …how many enquiries have we had into various ministers and their mistakes/errors ? … These days people don’t resign, they have an enquiry …

Oh how I wish we could find something awful out about Nadine Dorries…apart from her writing…🙄
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

Post by ChipbuttyG »

Frank Blank wrote: 20 Jan 2022 09:25
Voiceoftreason? wrote: 20 Jan 2022 09:11 Is it ‘legal’ for him to represent another party when he’s been voted into office by his constituents for a different party?
The answer is yes. Worth noting - and with no sense of irony - Wakeford, in 2020, co-sponsored and voted for a private members bill that would "enable the recall of Members of the House of Commons who voluntarily change their political party affiliation; and for connected purposes.”
I really don't agree with this "you vote for the person, not the party".

We've seen recently with the old turncoat Mayor of Reading, David Stevens defect to Labour as he was deselected by the Tories.

LOLabour have enough representation on Reading Council and now they have another. I'll vote for anyone other than Labour in Reading.
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Voiceoftreason?
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

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Frank Blank wrote: 20 Jan 2022 09:25
Voiceoftreason? wrote: 20 Jan 2022 09:11 Is it ‘legal’ for him to represent another party when he’s been voted into office by his constituents for a different party?
The answer is yes. Worth noting - and with no sense of irony - Wakeford, in 2020, co-sponsored and voted for a private members bill that would "enable the recall of Members of the House of Commons who voluntarily change their political party affiliation; and for connected purposes.”
Thanks Frank. Hhhhmn. Doesn’t seem right, does it

Mayfield - “ I think his calculation was that his voters are very sick of Boris and would back him “. That’s a big presumption on his part isn’t it really and of course, without a vote, we have no way of knowing. I’d feel like my vote for the party he originally represented, had been hijacked for a cause I didn’t vote for.......

Interesting.
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

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Originally the idea was that mps should represent those who voted forvthem. This has been corrupted into voting for a self-interest corral if centrally funded influencers who care only for their interests and those if the people who guve them money
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

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Mayfield wrote: 20 Jan 2022 09:32 I think his calculation was that his voters are very sick of Boris and would back him …
If Wakeford had any balls/principles, he would put that theory to the test by resigning and causing a by-election. Alas, I doubt he has any. Unlike Carswell and Reckless, both of whom resigned when they defected to UKIP and both of whom subsequently won their by-elections.
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

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I’m not saying he’s right, just that if he went back to his constituency and found people enraged over party gate he may have decided he couldn’t stay in Boris’s government.

What I don’t understand is that the instructions to the electorate were clear, unless they were manufacturing an essential product or were in an essential customer facing service, why were they there - and what about the 70 who didn’t attend ? We’re they managing to WFH or did they come in and leave before the party ?
The rest of us could only gather in twos …. But there was 30 of them and having read out the statement to the nation , it didn’t occur to the PM it was wrong ?
Is he that thick ?
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

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Voiceoftreason? wrote: 20 Jan 2022 09:11 Now, I understand almost zero abut Politics so I may be being dense.

By all means cross, and re-cross the floor to whichever side your conscience takes you, but..... Did not the voters of the defecting MP, vote for his Party and not Labour? Is it ‘legal’ for him to represent another party when he’s been voted into office by his constituents for a different party?

If I were one of the people that voted for him, I’d be mightily cheesed off that he was now a labour bod not a conservative. That wasn’t the party I voted for as represented by him. Is there a deputy Conservative waiting in the wings in that constituency to replace him or something?

Does he take his voters with him or is he an MP that hasn’t been voted in by labour voters? I don’t understand! :banghead:
The convention, and indeed legal situation is that you vote for the candidate, dating back to the time when there were no real parties ("no real parties" incidentally being Boris' latest defence 😉) and maintained because MPs are not legally bound to follow the party line (the case of Jeremy Corbyn having defied the party line about 400 times in the Commons before becoming party leader has been mentioned in the past). Details of a party name on a ballot paper are an indication of affiliation, not a binding obligation on the candidate. (It works both ways too - without such "flexibility" parties might find it difficult to occasionally suspend or expel members, or depending on how the regulations would be written alternatively they could replace your local, popular MP with a faceless party apparatchik if the local member is annoying or uncomfortable for the party leadership - which would also disenfranchise the electorate.)

Anyway, it was good enough for Churchill, who crossed the floor twice, to the Liberals in 1904, and back to the Tories in 1925, subsequently describing his activities as "ratting and re-ratting".
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

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mikejee wrote: 20 Jan 2022 09:44 Originally the idea was that mps should represent those who voted forvthem. This has been corrupted into voting for a self-interest corral if centrally funded influencers who care only for their interests and those if the people who guve them money
We are supposed to be voting for the candidate not his party. I don’t think the party name has always been on the ballot paper. I vote either for the candidate or the party, as sometimes I’m too lazy to check out the individual. There have been occasions when I’ve voted for the candidate but they weren’t my party of choice. I can see how people are miffed if their MP changes sides, but isn’t it healthy that MPs will change their minds or reject what their party represents. Sadly, the party hierarchy and machine has a vice like grip on what individual MPs can say or do. I’m not sure it was always as bad as that. Churchill didn’t have a problem changing sides. Should they seek re-election? I don’t think there’s a right or wrong answer to that.
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

Post by ChipbuttyG »

Like I say. With Reading it just seems wrong that Labour now have another representative on the council without any vote taking place.

It would be great to have more representation from other parties. Labour have made a right mess of Reading.
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

Post by C.A.Versham »

Could Mr. Wakeford not just have resigned from the Conservatives and become an independent? That way he would have freedom to vote as he wished rather than being whipped. His constituents might not have been so upset as some of them seem to be now.

It does mean now that he has to embrace all the policies of a party he has been so critical of in the past.
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

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Frank Blank wrote: 20 Jan 2022 09:45
Mayfield wrote: 20 Jan 2022 09:32 I think his calculation was that his voters are very sick of Boris and would back him …
If Wakeford had any balls/principles, he would put that theory to the test by resigning and causing a by-election. Alas, I doubt he has any. Unlike Carswell and Reckless, both of whom resigned when they defected to UKIP and both of whom subsequently won their by-elections.
And if Boris had any and this was Japan, then he would commit Hari Kari
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

Post by Frank Blank »

Well the tweet below didn't age well. BTW, Robert West is Professor of Health Psychology at University College London and specialises in addiction and behaviour change. He is a participant in SPI-B (SAGE).

When all is said and done there will hopefully be an enquiry into what the Government got right and got wrong!!!

Ditto those scientists behind the absolutely appalling modelling and advice they've periodically come up with over the past two years of the China virus.


Robert West
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It is now a near certainty that the UK will be seeing a hospitalisation rate that massively exceeds the capacity of the NHS. Many thousands of people have been condemned to death by The Conservative Government.
5:32 pm · 27 Dec 2021·Twitter for iPad
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ChipbuttyG
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

Post by ChipbuttyG »

7 days and counting and I'm still waiting for Reading Council leader Jason Brock to reply to my e-mail asking him to condemn his own Labour colleague on the council for breaking lockdown rules. :-)
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

Post by C.A.Versham »

Frank Blank wrote: 21 Jan 2022 22:17 Well the tweet below didn't age well. BTW, Robert West is Professor of Health Psychology at University College London and specialises in addiction and behaviour change. He is a participant in SPI-B (SAGE).
Had to look up what Health Psychology was. Seems to be a study of how our behaviour relates to health outcomes. So, we don't exercise and eat too much fast food, mix with strangers and get ill. Can I have my masters degree please?
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

Post by dave m »

well, the "Orange One" who used to be in charge of the USA and is a "stable genius" believes that exercise drains energy (it does but not how he thinks) that we are born with. And that making your heart beat faster means that you use up heartbeats .

I can see the point of Health Psychology. I recently worked on a conference to do with addiction and psychology. many unfit or addicted people need to be encouraged as they don't believe that they can change. Shifting an addictive personality to sport v drugs or alcohol can encourage endorphins that they previously enjoyed with risky behaviour. That in itself can boost their self esteem and general health.
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

Post by mikejee »

But then sport becomes addictive, both taking part and watching, which leads to the moronic behaviour of many sports, especially football, fans
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

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… and then again a tortoise is probably one of the slowest land animals, doesn’t rush anywhere -and (some) live well over 100 years of age… probably has no stress either factors either :whistle1:
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

Post by C.A.Versham »

A&E departments were quite busy on Saturday and Sunday afternoons fixing up injured sports people, all doing sport to keep fit. Never appealed to me but enjoy watching the downhill skiers.
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

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C.A.Versham wrote: 24 Jan 2022 16:27 A&E departments were quite busy on Saturday and Sunday afternoons fixing up injured sports people, all doing sport to keep fit. Never appealed to me but enjoy watching the downhill skiers.
So Cav are you saying that it is not COVID Bringing the NHS to its knees? Iits people playing sport to keep fit. Better tell Boris, then he can ban people playing all sports to protect the wonderful NHS from floundering.
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

Post by C.A.Versham »

The NHS is under pressure for a whole range of reasons, COVID being only the latest.

My point about sport was said somewhat in jest as I am struck by the irony of people injuring themselves when doing something to keep fit!
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

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BOY RACER wrote: 24 Jan 2022 20:41
C.A.Versham wrote: 24 Jan 2022 16:27 A&E departments were quite busy on Saturday and Sunday afternoons fixing up injured sports people, all doing sport to keep fit. Never appealed to me but enjoy watching the downhill skiers.
So Cav are you saying that it is not COVID Bringing the NHS to its knees? Iits people playing sport to keep fit. Better tell Boris, then he can ban people playing all sports to protect the wonderful NHS from floundering.
It’s a Catch 22 - during lockdown / furlough many people turned to DIY as time on their hands and A&E intakes went up which caused problems as running with Covid restrictions
Similarly with anything that could cause an injury such as sport, especially if it’s taken up incorrectly and no / little training
So all a drain / pressure on the NHS already snowed under with Covid cases

There was a good report on it all on last night news
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

Post by Mayfield »

Maybe one reason is not investing in training people already here, and relying on recruiting from overseas.

That has significant drawbacks as well as some advantages…
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

Post by dave m »

A survey found that sponsored parachute jumps for NHS Scotland cost the NHS more in fixing broken ankles/injuries acquired than the funds raised.

NHs training has been cut to the bone. It's not that hard (but expensive) to tie student nurses or doctors to working in the NHS for a period in the same way as the military sponsor university for some. Serve a period by mutual agreement or pay the cost back.

Absorbing trained staff from abroad, particularly some countries, can mean that we spend more in aid.
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

Post by Voiceoftreason? »

As well as finding, its a time factor. It can take six or seven years (plus or minus any specialist training on top) to become a Doctor, surgeon or Consultant.....
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Re: COVID-19: The Politics

Post by ChipbuttyG »

So it seems Cllr Jason Brock isn't willing to condemn his colleague for breaking lockdown rules but expects Alok to condemn his colleague.

Who'd have thought it!?!?!
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