Tackling Racism

[MickEdge]

Yes thank you . I met Angie O'Gram in person.
There is a mobile testing unit from the UK which visits Irish hospitals.

As I recall, she’s the lady who presses on your groin for several minutes after the procedure, while you try to make polite conversation.

[Bentley]

Yes thank you . I met Angie O'Gram in person.
There is a mobile testing unit from the UK which visits Irish hospitals.

As I recall, she’s the lady who presses on your groin for several minutes after the procedure, while you try to make polite conversation.

I could not possibly comment

[Bentley]

In the above I am not talking about equality ,I am stating what I consider to be facts.
Position in all fields is earned by ability, hence, for instance, the number of "coloured" players in soccer.

This whole thing is about equality though. If position in all fields is earned by ability then why are black people less likely to be offered jobs than white counterparts with the same experience and qualifications? Why do black people still regularly report racial harassment at work? Why are they regularly reporting unfair treatment in the workplace?

Or should they perhaps, as the minority in the country, just suck it up?

Or perhaps they moan a lot.

[Voiceoftreason?]

In the above I am not talking about equality ,I am stating what I consider to be facts.
Position in all fields is earned by ability, hence, for instance, the number of "coloured" players in soccer.

This whole thing is about equality though. If position in all fields is earned by ability then why are black people less likely to be offered jobs than white counterparts with the same experience and qualifications? Why do black people still regularly report racial harassment at work? Why are they regularly reporting unfair treatment in the workplace?

Or should they perhaps, as the minority in the country, just suck it up?

Or perhaps they moan a lot.

That’ll be all that groin pressing then

[Frank Blank]

Biden is leading in the polls Frank. Obviously doesn't mean he'll win it, what with the daft electoral college system, but he is ahead at the moment.

How anyone could vote for the Donald after the shit show of his response to the virus is way beyond me though.

Interestingly, the latest numbers from Rasmussen show Trump's job approval rating at its highest (51%) since January, so it doesn't look as if the China virus has had much of an impact. Meanwhile, at this stage in his second term Dopeama had a job approval rating of 49%.

Also noteworthy, latest polling (August 20) shows Trump in a statistical tie with Biden in Minnesota - a state the GOP hasn't carried at a General Election since 1972. Maybe it's the George Floyd effect, I'm not sure. What I'm more certain about is that the numbers between Trump and Biden will start to narrow.

Indeed, Trump has been out of the blocks pretty quickly, with negative ads reminding voters showing how useless (and at times dangerous) Biden's 47 years political career has been.

He has a lot of material to work with.

[dave m]

https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/election-us-2020-53657174

[Mayfield]

So now the British Museum is going to move a statue of Hans Sloane because of his links to Slavery, ( although I haven,t seen anything that says he was a trader ) so what now will the Natural History Museum doing seeing as his botanical collections also formed the basis of the Museum ?

Goodbye Sloane Square and Hans Crescent ?

Seeing as Hans Sloane Imported Cocoa beans after noticing the effect the ground beans had on the natives , and later Cadbury’s sold the recipe should we stock up on milk chocolate before enjoying that is seen as racist ?



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Sloane

[MickEdge]

So now the British Museum is going to move a statue of Hans Sloane because of his links to Slavery, ( although I haven,t seen anything that says he was a trader ) so what now will the Natural History Museum doing seeing as his botanical collections also formed the basis of the Museum ?

Goodbye Sloane Square and Hans Crescent ?

Seeing as Hans Sloane Imported Cocoa beans after noticing the effect the ground beans had on the natives , and later Cadbury’s sold the recipe should we stock up on milk chocolate before enjoying that is seen as racist ?



https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Sloane

This seemed to have kept you awake. I guess if I say I agree with you I’ll be accused of not understanding because I’m white. I understand the BM’s dilemma, Moving statues, this particular one is not the answer. So I’m just left with agreeing with your .

[Mayfield]

I wonder why it is that when you can't sleep and turn to the internet to pass some time you find these things ...
I once wrote an article about Hans Sloane for a collectors magazine, he founded ( or greatly enhanced ) Chelsea Physic Gardens, and examples from there inspired the ceramic Chelsea Botanicals, in turn these plates inspired the French artist Alfred Beau who worked with the Quimper potteries and I used to collect Quimper pottery...( though not Alfred Beau )

As far as I can see ( maybe I've missed something ) his sin is using slave labour to gather his samples and recording the punishments given to slaves. He was a man of his time, I’d humbly suggest the norms of behaviour were different. He worked with charities free for over thirty years, his donations founded The British Museum, The Natural History Museum and the British Library....but instead of simple educational explanations and pointing out this is shared history t, he is somehow derided....
Of course there are people who are completely evil but I'd suggest most people are both good and bad .......I hope any alteration to presentations reflects that. It’s History, leave him where he is, explain his life good and bad in simple terms, learn from it and move on....
What comes over is a desire to emphasise the 'we were wronged' aspects of the past ...theres surely a different, better way...

I think this is an over the top reaction and the sort of thing that doesn’t heal divides but makes them wider...I see the NT has been accused of 'jumping on the band wagon too'

And although I was semi joking about changing the names of the roads, I bet someone suggests it...

But you are right, how can I understand, I'm white

[C.A.Versham]

The historian David Olusaga made the interesting point this morning about statues. He thought that putting them on a pedestal was the issue as it implied adoration. The statue should still be displayed but with more contextual information, as is happening to the Colston statue in Bristol.

[KeithW]

"Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of any thing that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth."

So it's wrong. God said so.

[C.A.Versham]

Ah but a graven image is an idol or representation of a god for worship, not a statue to record their life and deeds. So no thunderbolt then.

[KeithW]

Moot. The 'don't worship them' bit follows on separately and I'm taking no chances.

[dave m]

FFS all they are doing is moving the statue and putting it on display with material to explain the context

[joe_smooth]

FFS all they are doing is moving the statue and putting it on display with material to explain the context

How can you expect white people to understand this!!!?!?!11!?!

[MickEdge]

FFS all they are doing is moving the statue and putting it on display with material to explain the context

Isn’t the context that he was also one of the museum’s founders.

[lizwing]

I saw this on another forum and it sums up what I and many other people feel, that all this is making people who were never racist actually feel differently.

You know folks, I never cared that you were gay ...... until you started shoving it down my throat.
I never cared what colour you were ..... till you started blaming me for your problems.
I never cared about your political affiliation ..... until you started condemning me for mine.
I really never even cared where you were born ...... until you wanted to erase my history and blame my ancestors for your problems.
You know I never even cared if your beliefs were different from mine ...... until you said mine were wrong.
But now I care, my patience and tolerance are gone and I am not alone in feeling like this.
There are millions of us who feel like this.

[KeithW]

I saw this on another forum and it sums up what I and many other people feel, that all this is making people who were never racist actually feel differently.

<drivel snipped>

But now I care, my patience and tolerance are gone and I am not alone in feeling like this.
There are millions of us who feel like this.

Poor persecuted you!

[lizwing]

I don’t remember saying I was persecuted, read it properly before you jump in with your facile remarks.

[KeithW]

I don’t remember saying I was persecuted, read it properly before you jump in with your facile remarks.

Dictionary: Noun. Big book what you look up words in.

Persecute: Verb. 2. to bother persistently.

eg. "...my patience and tolerance are gone and I am not alone in feeling like this."

Seems a pretty good fit to me. HTH.

Facile: Adjective. ignoring the true complexities of an issue; superficial.

eg. "You know folks, I never cared that you were gay..."

So does that. HAND.

[Voiceoftreason?]

Good re-post Liz. I agree with every word of it.

[C.A.Versham]

An interesting and thought provoking post Liz.

I've started to wonder when and how there might be a reaction to the way some issues are being raised. I've even wondered if some commentators, lecturers and activists deliberately make statements to provoke a reaction so that they can respond with a 'told you so'. If they had been more measured or reflective in their comments perhaps then they would not have attracted the opprobrium of the Twitter mob.

I cannot say I agree with KeithW's somewhat patronising commentary but each to their own I suppose.

[Bam]

Lizwing

[KeithW]

An interesting and thought provoking post Liz.

I've started to wonder when and how there might be a reaction to the way some issues are being raised. I've even wondered if some commentators, lecturers and activists deliberately make statements to provoke a reaction so that they can respond with a 'told you so'. If they had been more measured or reflective in their comments perhaps then they would not have attracted the opprobrium of the Twitter mob.

I cannot say I agree with KeithW's somewhat patronising commentary but each to their own I suppose.

I find this Readers' Digest 'homespun' stuff repellent. It contributes nothing other than to dilute the real issues by making the poster feel hard done by. Quite how you would find that vapid tripe thought provoking is beyond me.

[Mayfield]

FFS all they are doing is moving the statue and putting it on display with material to explain the context

How can you expect white people to understand this!!!?!?!11!?!

Why move it in the first place ? And what will NHM and the British Library do....

I'm afraid my thought about why statues are so often on plinths is it’s so more people can see them, and that’s usually what the people that have paid for it ( often not the subject ) and the artist want, common sense to raise them up isn't it ? What people think when they see it is up to them...

No doubt I,m wrong, it’s a too simple an explanation ....

[Mayfield]

And what in your view are the real issues, KeithW ?

[dave m]

His wealth came from owning slaves.
In the previous location, no mention was made of how he came by his wealth.

I don't see anything wrong in a museum explaining it's history and background of the principle benefactor/founder.
They are moving him to better explain the "back story" of the museum.

Out of interest, I looked up wiki for H&P.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huntley_%26_Palmers
I would expect the H&P gallery in the Reading Museum to have something that explains something about the company that was an important part of the town's history.

[mikejee]

But will we have plaques at areas of museums concerning muslims, pointing out that the transportation of slaves was first initiated by arabs of this faith?

[Voiceoftreason?]

Cav

[Mayfield]

His wealth came from owning slaves.
In the previous location, no mention was made of how he came by his wealth.

I don't see anything wrong in a museum explaining it's history and background of the principle benefactor/founder.
They are moving him to better explain the "back story" of the museum.

Out of interest, I looked up wiki for H&P.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huntley_%26_Palmers
I would expect the H&P gallery in the Reading Museum to have something that explains something about the company that was an important part of the town's history.

The back story they have seems pretty adequate, esp considering if you asked Joe Bloggs who HANS Sloane was, they wouldn’t know
https://www.britishmuseum.org/about-us/ ... ans-sloane

[C.A.Versham]

An interesting and thought provoking back story for Hans Sloane.

I knew that he was a collector but was not aware that he was involved in the treatment of smallpox through inoculations. The BM piece seems clear about the involvement of slaves in his work and hopefully more will be drawn to read it.

[joe_smooth]

I saw this on another forum and it sums up what I and many other people feel, that all this is making people who were never racist actually feel differently.

You know folks, I never cared that you were gay ...... until you started shoving it down my throat.
I never cared what colour you were ..... till you started blaming me for your problems.
I never cared about your political affiliation ..... until you started condemning me for mine.
I really never even cared where you were born ...... until you wanted to erase my history and blame my ancestors for your problems.
You know I never even cared if your beliefs were different from mine ...... until you said mine were wrong.
But now I care, my patience and tolerance are gone and I am not alone in feeling like this.
There are millions of us who feel like this.

So your response to people standing up for themselves is to be more racist?

[C.A.Versham]

Oh, the irony! A posting expressing a viewpoint about how groups are dictating the narrative is shouted down as being 'racist' in order to stifle discussion. Just the sort of comment to frustrate the debate and harden opinions.

[joe_smooth]

Oh, the irony! A posting expressing a viewpoint about how groups are dictating the narrative is shouted down as being 'racist' in order to stifle discussion. Just the sort of comment to frustrate the debate and harden opinions.

That's not what's happened at all! That's not a post expressing a viewpoint, it's a piss poor Facebook cut and paste.

But let's take look at it from a different angle. Liz feels like black people are having a go at her personally. Her response (or the original FB posters response anyway) is to harden her resolve and be more racist/homophobic/islamaphobic (I'm guessing we're taking about Muslims in that post although it could easily be Christians or JWs). That's what that post says. Anyone posting it should have a word with themselves.

[Voiceoftreason?]

Why? In an equal world everyone has an equal right. Including that of not agreeing with others and exercising their right to live how THEY choose too.

As much as anyone has the right to live how they want to, I have the inalienable right to not accept anyone’s lifestyle if I don’t want too

Why should anyone be an apologist for something they have not personally done. And I’m sure if anyone feels aggrieved, they can stand up for themselves. Racism isn’t an exclusively black experience.