Tackling Racism

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joe_smooth
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by joe_smooth »

The all lives matter thing is quite clear in my eyes. Of course all lives matter. The point is that black lives, in the US, clearly do not. They are killed with impunity by the people who are supposed to protect and serve them. You don't need a white lives matter or an all lives matter movement because it's not white people getting killed illegally by the police (although there are instances).

Totally agree that poverty in the community is the problem here but poverty affects BAME families far more than white families. Is that because of racism? Do BAME people get accepted for the best universities or best jobs? No they don't. Why is that if it isn't racism? And if you grow up seeing that around you, does it make you lazy? Stop you from having ambition? Make you think that crime is the only way you are going to have any of the luxuries you can see around you?
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mikejee
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by mikejee »

joe_smooth wrote: 12 Aug 2020 13:26 The all lives matter thing is quite clear in my eyes. Of course all lives matter. The point is that black lives, in the US, clearly do not. They are killed with impunity by the people who are supposed to protect and serve them. You don't need a white lives matter or an all lives matter movement because it's not white people getting killed illegally by the police (although there are instances).

Totally agree that poverty in the community is the problem here but poverty affects BAME families far more than white families. Is that because of racism? Do BAME people get accepted for the best universities or best jobs? No they don't. Why is that if it isn't racism? And if you grow up seeing that around you, does it make you lazy? Stop you from having ambition? Make you think that crime is the only way you are going to have any of the luxuries you can see around you?
Exactly . As you say "Black lives do not matter IN THE US" Yet we get stupid women such as that quoted by Liz make statements such as that about tobacco bras. I think there are (and certainly were) some racist police, particularly in London. Not convinced that the the number of them is large, but they certainly should be routed out, as should those who try and stir things on the other "side", such as the "tobacco woman" previously mentioned. The suggestion that the MP should have delayed posting her video till receiving an answer from the police assumes that any reply will be quick an dnot delayed by "internal investigations" which can last years, by which time many will have conveniently forgotten the matter.
One thing that should be remembered is that there are some aspects of culture that will ensure that black people may receive more attention. Teh preponderance of cannabis use , sometimes as a "religion" is one. Despite some Authorities (including a particularly stupid white professor) saying thta it should be legalised, it is a cause of mental problems (admittedly as also can be alcohol) which in turn can cause violence. This should not be a cause for one to treat black people differently, but may result in them being under surveillance more.
As to the small numbers of black people in senior positions, I agree that there may be some prejudice, in particular from those creatures educated at public school, but it will not be solved by "positively" installing people of the "correct" colour who are not up to the job. The result of putting unsuitable people in power has been amply shown by the case of Boris Johnson
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Bentley
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by Bentley »

I am white, male, married to a woman and proud of it. Is that sexist, racist or perhaps just NORMAL?
Join my march up Broad Street. :roflol3:
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Re: Tackling Racism

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But young black people in this country do feel marginalised so naturally have taken on the BLM movement. That tells you something about how they feel surely?

Now, I don't want to get into a drug legalisation debate here but you should realise your 'preponderance of cannabis use' statement is an age old racist trope. I suggest you read up on it's history, perhaps starting with Harry Anslinger, and you'll see that cannabis prohibition and racism are closely tied. Then go further back and look at how empire and slavery spread cannabis use among black slaves and Indian indentured workers. Also, consider that a LOT of white people smoke weed. Probably more than black people.

As for your final point, I'm not saying a black person should be promoted purely on the colour of their skin. I'm saying a black person should not be rejected because of the colour of their skin.
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by joe_smooth »

Bentley wrote: 12 Aug 2020 14:15 I am white, male, married to a woman and proud of it. Is that sexist, racist or perhaps just NORMAL?
Join my march up Broad Street. :roflol3:
Hilarious.
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mikejee
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by mikejee »

joe_smooth wrote: 12 Aug 2020 14:19 But young black people in this country do feel marginalised so naturally have taken on the BLM movement. That tells you something about how they feel surely?

Now, I don't want to get into a drug legalisation debate here but you should realise your 'preponderance of cannabis use' statement is an age old racist trope. I suggest you read up on it's history, perhaps starting with Harry Anslinger, and you'll see that cannabis prohibition and racism are closely tied. Then go further back and look at how empire and slavery spread cannabis use among black slaves and Indian indentured workers. Also, consider that a LOT of white people smoke weed. Probably more than black people.

As for your final point, I'm not saying a black person should be promoted purely on the colour of their skin. I'm saying a black person should not be rejected because of the colour of their skin.
I accept that some young black people may feel marginialised, though to my mind this is because they look at society and DO see that there are an proportionally excessive number of white people in senior positions. My arguement would be that this has to be corrected by natural personal development of these young people in their careers. I certainly think that no-one should be rejected because of the colour of their skin. My comment on cannabis use was concerning the position now, not how it developed. You may well be right as to how it developed (I would admit ignorance on that), but, to me, that should not effect how people should treat these matters now (for all people, black and white). In passing, although I myself do like a drink, and in the past probably often went over the top, I can see that some restrictions on alcohol use could reasonably be argued because of its potential undesirable effects.
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Voiceoftreason?
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by Voiceoftreason? »

Perhaps the operative word here is not racism, but minority.

Here’s a thought.......

The UK is a predominantly white country. Anyone who is non-white (and by that I mean black, Asian or any other nationality you’d care to mention) are by dint of that fact, they are going to be in the minority.

Why would you then, expect non-white people to be proportionately represented? Are countries where white people are in the minority, proportionately represented? E.g. in China.

Or is it not even a ‘white’ or ‘non-white’ issue - are non-native (to use the first word I thought of) people treated the same way as non-native people in ANY country? Brits in Spain for example? Or religion based -catholic’s in Protestant ‘jobs’. And so Ona d so on

Maybe it’s nothing to do with any -isms at all, just sheer weight of numbers where the majority outweighs the minority. Whilst that remains, no amount of adjustments will level the proportions.

And another thought. This is not America. We don’t have their history. Ask yourself who benefits from making parallels between the U.K. experience of being black, and the American one, which are very very different. On both sides.
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bert
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by bert »

mikejee wrote: 12 Aug 2020 15:12 I certainly think that no-one should be rejected because of the colour of their skin.
Yes, but this happens. Here is a study from Oxford University

Despite actual evidence, you'll still get people in a constant state of denial. They'll claim those minorities are playing the race card or need to adjust their perceptions. I'm not sure why they're so fragile that someone's want for equality threatens them?
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Re: Tackling Racism

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Voiceoftreason? wrote: 12 Aug 2020 15:44 Perhaps the operative word here is not racism, but minority.

Here’s a thought.......

The UK is a predominantly white country. Anyone who is non-white (and by that I mean black, Asian or any other nationality you’d care to mention) are by dint of that fact, they are going to be in the minority.

Why would you then, expect non-white people to be proportionately represented? Are countries where white people are in the minority, proportionately represented? E.g. in China.

Or is it not even a ‘white’ or ‘non-white’ issue - are non-native (to use the first word I thought of) people treated the same way as non-native people in ANY country? Brits in Spain for example? Or religion based -catholic’s in Protestant ‘jobs’. And so Ona d so on

Maybe it’s nothing to do with any -isms at all, just sheer weight of numbers where the majority outweighs the minority. Whilst that remains, no amount of adjustments will level the proportions.

And another thought. This is not America. We don’t have their history. Ask yourself who benefits from making parallels between the U.K. experience of being black, and the American one, which are very very different. On both sides.
Australians and South Africans seem to get a good deal here which makes me think it's about colour. There is no reason why a british black man or woman should be discriminated against but they are. Even the Eastern Europeans get a better deal which again, makes me think it's to do with colour of skin.

What benefits are there of making parallels between the UK and US then? I've asked my self who benefits and can't find an answer. Can you tell me? And let's face it our histories have taken similar paths and are both rooted in empire and slavery. We've had our share of black people killed in custody and our police can close ranks like the US ones do when they have to. Just because we don't kill as many as the yanks doesn't mean we're blameless.
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Bentley
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Re: Tackling Racism

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Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and America all had "native" populations which were squashed by European "whities" but nevertheless the whites were the immigrants
The UK has a "native" population ,which until fairly recently was white, and that is the simple difference from the above.
Until there is a significant change in the UK population the whites will dominate, since they are the "native" population.
That is not racism, that is a fact.
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Voiceoftreason?
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Re: Tackling Racism

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Australians can be black, mixed race or of native origin, they aren’t exclusively ‘white’ same as South Africans - who a lot of people seem to think are .Australian by their accents 🙄. I’d be surprised if your statement about Eastern European’s getting ‘a better deal’ as I don’t know of a single one in a professional role such as a GP, or Bank Manager.

Human beings see in colour - almost unique in the mammal world. Colour is the first thing we see when we see a person. It’s undeniable what ‘colour’ they are, in the same way as gender is (usually) equally obvious and undeniable when seen. Therefore is sexism an automatic reaction in the same way you seem to be suggesting racism is (I.e. see black think racist thoughts?)

I am not personally responsible for what my country of birth may or may not have done in the past. Banging on about it is pointless. It’s never going to happen again, it was of it’s time and black/other nations and nationalities are not blameless in that area either. Conquering countries will subjugate, subdue or enslave the losers in any war, struggle, revolution or tribal fighting.

This is not an exclusively ‘white’ problem. Suggesting it is is a racist remark in itself. Our police, in comparison to US police (and indeed Spanish police and Guarda Civil) are pretty benign. The majority do not carry firearms unlike the Americans. The majority of our population do not carry firearms, unlike the Americans.

As for the police closing ranks, that may have been the case and if so, we will never know. I believe it is less likely now - too many cell phones, too many CCTV, enough support mechanisms to assist with complaints and a recognised process in which to whistleblow. There are rogue cops, of course there are, but the idea that they go round duffing up a con in a cell whilst the others have a fag break, belongs in an episode of The Sweeney.

I don’t know what the answer is, and I suspect, if you will excuse the pun, the BAME community doesn’t either. They are vocal about change, equality, this and that, but I’ve yet to hear one make a coherent comment about what that change is and practicable suggestion as to how to achieve what they want.

Political agitators make parallels between whatever provides grist to their mill, it’s naive to think otherwise. In those circumstances it more like they want superiority, not equality.
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Voiceoftreason?
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Re: Tackling Racism

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Thank you Bentley, you’ve said in about ten words what I spent half a dozen paras trying to say!
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by dave m »

https://metro.co.uk/2020/07/05/police-s ... -12948099/

The guy in the video above was on his way back from giving a ch4 news interview about being stopped 20 times.

I have been stopped once, 20 years ago, a black driver is 9 times more likely to be stopped than a white driver

Using the argument above that "black people are a minority, so a work situation also puts them in a minority" kind of falls apart in the driving situation

Thank God I don't have to use my mobile to record myself just in case a police officer doesn't like the cut of my jib
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by Pooneil »

Mayfield wrote: 11 Aug 2020 21:37 Since the Met are talking about releasing the footage from the police body cam my thoughts are that it’s even chances either way...however Dawn Butler thinks it’s OK to shout this is racism and it’s a problem in the police before the incident has even been investigated.
That’s not being part of the solution, it’s contributing to the problem.
Dawn Butler is 50. I bet she's spent decades dealing with this sort of thing, either personally or for her constituents, with endless polite brush-offs or even straight ignorals. Sometimes you just feel like not playing it by the book but venting.
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Re: Tackling Racism

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And if the police did that ? Let’s show the body cam of this black person being stopped and investigated, whether or not they are guilty ...🙄

Don't you think the police get just as frustrated ?
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Re: Tackling Racism

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dave m wrote: 12 Aug 2020 17:35 https://metro.co.uk/2020/07/05/police-s ... -12948099/

The guy in the video above was on his way back from giving a ch4 news interview about being stopped 20 times.

I have been stopped once, 20 years ago, a black driver is 9 times more likely to be stopped than a white driver

Using the argument above that "black people are a minority, so a work situation also puts them in a minority" kind of falls apart in the driving situation

Thank God I don't have to use my mobile to record myself just in case a police officer doesn't like the cut of my jib
Funnily enough I was sort of ‘profiled’ many year ago by ‘certain’ police officers and stopped on a regular basis – anything for 1 to 10 times a month!
And nothing to do with racism – and many others were treated the same
The reason – I (and mates) drove ‘customised cars’ and we were often out late evenings / night!

Quite often got told they were routine checks which was a laugh - imagine in a queue of cars and they stop the one in the middle!
And I would hate to say the number of times I got stopped and accused of things like racing / speeding etc - and with each one of those I made an official compliant about it, especially the one where a lone officer threatened me with his truncheon for no reason, stupidly in front of witnesses.............

It was so bad I carried all my documents with me, including an engineer’s report I was forced to get by my insurance company as I mentioned it had wider than standard wheels (but nothing mechanically different!)

Still get it at times these days but only at certain times / places, but that’s because I ride a motorbike and go to shows etc!

So yes there are some ‘over-zealous’ officers out there, whether racist or not is another question but it those ones who are profiling people that are causing all these problems


Just ask our local East Reading police officers / PCSO’s who are a mixed bunch of WBAME guys and gals what they think of it all…………………..
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by C.A.Versham »

If you get time and are interested it's worth listening to this edition of the Media Show.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/programmes/m000llx7

They discuss BAME representation in the media both in front of and behind the camera. When asked about the relatively high percentage of BAME actors on television in relation to the general population I found the BBC's Head of Ceative Diversity's answer somewhat surprising.
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Re: Tackling Racism

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I was thinking about the report Liz posted re M&S .....just look at their 'front' page for women’s wear ...I think there are 7 photos of a young black model and 2 of a white model .....their whole range is modelled by an ethnically diverse range of models , none of which represent their core customer, but hey, let’s not nit pick.

My jeans are called 'Lily' I'm pretty sure this refers to Lily White....Should I be insulted and complain. 😀

Btw Re the Dawn Butler stop, I fleetingly wondered if the windows of the car were tinted and how the police knew who was driving if so....I thought it too facile to mention, but according to a senior police officer, they were tinted and they didn,t know...
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by KeithW »

Mayfield wrote: 13 Aug 2020 10:06 Btw Re the Dawn Butler stop, I fleetingly wondered if the windows of the car were tinted and how the police knew who was driving if so....I thought it too facile to mention, but according to a senior police officer, they were tinted and they didn,t know...
Newspapers are expert at manipulating confirmation bias. It behoves us to appreciate that and attempt to see through it.

The rear windows were tinted as is increasingly common. The front weren't (at least not illegally - a lot of windscreen glass is tinted to some extent).

[Reminds me of the time I did jury service and two of the jurors came right out at the start and said, "He wouldn't be here if he wasn't guilty." So it was many years ago, but clearly we have met.]
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Re: Tackling Racism

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KeithW
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by KeithW »

The policeman is reported as saying, "...the windows were tinted". The intended implication is that all the windows were tinted, possibly illegally, but that is not what he actually said, the situation is as I descibed above. Read what is there, not what you want to be there.

By the way, the dog ate my homework.
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by joe_smooth »

Bentley wrote: 12 Aug 2020 17:18 Australia, New Zealand, South Africa and America all had "native" populations which were squashed by European "whities" but nevertheless the whites were the immigrants
The UK has a "native" population ,which until fairly recently was white, and that is the simple difference from the above.
Until there is a significant change in the UK population the whites will dominate, since they are the "native" population.
That is not racism, that is a fact.
So no equality until we have equality in the population numbers? You're quite happy that there is no equality between racial groups because whites dominate round here? This wouldn't look out of place if it was posted on stormfront.

Even more amazing is that someone agreed with you.
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by Bentley »

In the above I am not talking about equality ,I am stating what I consider to be facts.
Position in all fields is earned by ability, hence, for instance, the number of "coloured" players in soccer.
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by joe_smooth »

Bentley wrote: 13 Aug 2020 13:57 In the above I am not talking about equality ,I am stating what I consider to be facts.
Position in all fields is earned by ability, hence, for instance, the number of "coloured" players in soccer.
This whole thing is about equality though. If position in all fields is earned by ability then why are black people less likely to be offered jobs than white counterparts with the same experience and qualifications? Why do black people still regularly report racial harassment at work? Why are they regularly reporting unfair treatment in the workplace?

Or should they perhaps, as the minority in the country, just suck it up?
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Re: Tackling Racism

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I now live in the Irish Republic ,but when I left Reading my GP was Dr. Williams who drove a white Rolls Royce and was "as black as your hat". Because of my age I have frequent visits to various Waterford hospitals. The eye specialist is Asian, the dermatologist is Indian, and the cardiologist is "coloured". The nursing staff are roughly 50/50 Irish /"coloured"
I would suggest through ability.
In the local supermarket I have seen two black employees,but i have never seen a "coloured" Gard. Perhaps the Gardai are prejudiced.

If you want a little amusement try counting the number of "coloured" news presenters there are on UK TV.

As an Englishman in Ireland IF I met any prejudice I would have to"suck it up". I AM IN THE MINORITY.
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Re: Tackling Racism

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Bentley wrote: 13 Aug 2020 14:44 ...when I left Reading my GP was Dr. Williams who drove a white Rolls Royce and was "as black as your hat".
Off topic, but according to the Chronicle, Dr F A B Williams Passed away peacefully on 20th February 2019.

He was my GP for a while. I didn't have one for decades, then needed one for a holiday insurance claim, and he was available. What a nice man, very knowledgeable, and not a hint of the pomposity which seems not uncommon with GPs. I recall the first time I saw him for my claim, I had hurt my neck and couldn't move well without muscle spasms. As I left the room he called out to me, and I shuffled round to see what he wanted. He was just checking my complaint was genuine and that I couldn't just turn my head round.

He retired due to ill heath a few years ago.
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by KeithW »

And you'd think in Ireland of all places the skin doctor would be Dermot O'Logist.
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Re: Tackling Racism

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😄
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Re: Tackling Racism

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KeithW wrote: 13 Aug 2020 15:23 And you'd think in Ireland of all places the skin doctor would be Dermot O'Logist.
You have pinched one of my best jokes. There is a whole family of the O'Logys. Cardio, Fisio, Bi, and Entero.
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Bentley
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by Bentley »

KeithW wrote: 13 Aug 2020 15:22
Bentley wrote: 13 Aug 2020 14:44 ...when I left Reading my GP was Dr. Williams who drove a white Rolls Royce and was "as black as your hat".
Off topic, but according to the Chronicle, Dr F A B Williams Passed away peacefully on 20th February 2019.

He was my GP for a while. I didn't have one for decades, then needed one for a holiday insurance claim, and he was available. What a nice man, very knowledgeable, and not a hint of the pomposity which seems not uncommon with GPs. I recall the first time I saw him for my claim, I had hurt my neck and couldn't move well without muscle spasms. As I left the room he called out to me, and I shuffled round to see what he wanted. He was just checking my complaint was genuine and that I couldn't just turn my head round.

He retired due to ill heath a few years ago.
I agree with your thoughts. When my late ex inlaws learned that a "black man"was taking over the practice they went to another GP. Now THAT was prejudice!.
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by KeithW »

Bentley wrote: 13 Aug 2020 17:04
KeithW wrote: 13 Aug 2020 15:23 And you'd think in Ireland of all places the skin doctor would be Dermot O'Logist.
You have pinched one of my best jokes. There is a whole family of the O'Logys. Cardio, Fisio, Bi, and Entero.
Don't forget Angie O'Gram and Austy O'Path.
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by Bentley »

:roflol3: Yes thank you . I met Angie O'Gram in person. :roflol3:
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by D5equj5 »

joe_smooth wrote: 12 Aug 2020 14:19
Bentley wrote: 12 Aug 2020 14:15 I am white, male, married to a woman and proud of it. Is that sexist, racist or perhaps just NORMAL?
Join my march up Broad Street. :roflol3:
Hilarious.
Unbelievable.
Quite shocking.
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by Bentley »

D5equj5 wrote: 14 Aug 2020 09:09
joe_smooth wrote: 12 Aug 2020 14:19
Bentley wrote: 12 Aug 2020 14:15 I am white, male, married to a woman and proud of it. Is that sexist, racist or perhaps just NORMAL?
Join my march up Broad Street. :roflol3:
Hilarious.
Unbelievable.
Quite shocking.
You cannot be seeerious :goodposting:
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by Mayfield »

I'm wondering why the BLM supporters aren't more vocal about the exam fiasco ?
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