Tackling Racism

[piwacket]

Anybody who imagines that the only contribution that a Black British citizen can make "might" be in the NHS (presumably as a cleaner?) clearly doesn't live in the same world that I do.

I said ‘kept the NHS going’ ... I.e operational! ... in every sense...Not clean!

You’re so predictable

[windrush]

Like most of you I have encountered/worked with many blacks and asians of all dominations over the years and all have been grafters in whatever industry they worked. The Lancashire and Yorkshire textile mills were large employers of them of course, Leicester also in the shoe industry etc. Not many ever came to this area though as there wasn't the work, but the few who did settle always worked. There were many in the Derby area who worked in construction and I delivered materials to them most days and they were never work shy.

Pete.

[mikejee]

Unlike some (only some) of a white "Aryan heritage" , who seem to have similar views to some Germans in the the 1930s

[Mayfield]

OK Garry so tell me and by me I mean a white English man living in England

a) What has the Irish Traveller living in this country contributed to it?

b) what has the Black man living in this country contributed to it.?

a) yes questionable
b) their community has certainly kept the NHS going... so maybe my question would be major or significant ... contribution ?
Poo will no doubt inform us

Unbelievable that this thread is called "tackling racism " yet some contributors seem stuck in the past and hold weird views better suited to a golf club clubhouse.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/oct ... ntity.race

Anybody who imagines that the only contribution that a Black British citizen can make "might" be in the NHS (presumably as a cleaner?) clearly doesn't live in the same world that I do.

You are right...I have very little contact with anyone who Isn't white on a day to day basis...it’s not intentional, it’s just the way it is. The development I live in is like a mini League of Nations though and all comers join in community events...even our socially distanced street party ....counting rainbows and bears in windows and clapping for the NHS etc....

I do my best to treat everyone I meet the same, in reality what else can I do ?

However I firmly believe that if we tackled poverty across the board it would be a big help and every child deserves the opportunity to fulfil their own potential...and that includes parents doing their bit and instilling some sort of ambition. There are some immigrant communities where this does happen and some where it’s not so prevalent and that needs tackling.... from all sides. If it’s harder for that sector why is it and what can be done ?
And making sure they have equal opportunities when they do make progress.....not better, or worse, but equal.

[piwacket]

I do my best to treat everyone I meet the same, in reality what else can I do ?

However I firmly believe that if we tackled poverty across the board it would be a big help and every child deserves the opportunity to fulfil their own potential...and that includes parents doing their bit and instilling some sort of ambition. There are some immigrant communities where this does happen and some where it’s not so prevalent and that needs tackling.... from all sides. If it’s harder for that sector why is it and what can be done ?
And making sure they have equal opportunities when they do make progress.....not better, or worse, but equal.

That sums it up well Mayfield... our neighbourhood has a similar mix

The resolution is a two-way battle... if families won’t integrate for whatever reason, or learn the language but still expect to be treated as equals in Society - it becomes a one-sided battle, which is very unfair and inevitably will cause resentment.

[C.A.Versham]

I must say to start with that I hesitate to post on this thread as it's a bit of a minefield and being who and what I am I would hate to inadvertently cause any offence. It seems so easy to do so on this topic which seems to attract sjw's like no other. Anyway, here goes.

I suspect that in all countries and all societies there are divisions and inequalities. Whether based on class, colour, ethnicity, gender, faith, wealth or educational experience and attainment differences exist. The issue for the UK is whether all is being done to mitigate such inequalities and in some areas I think we have a good track record. There is of course more to do whilst we take care not to introduce any unintended consequences.

My late father, a fairly liberal socialist, had to move house because a family from the Windrush generation moved in opposite and, in spite of many requests, were insistent on partying and playing music well into the early hours. My experience though of mixing and getting to know children at my own school from a similar background was fine. His experience of being consistently short-changed by a young Asian chap who took over the local corner shop was very different to mine when getting to know fellow students. The point I'm trying to make here is that people's views are linked to relatively narrow personal experiences and lead to generalisations.

What tends to irk people I think is what is sometimes referred to as 'playing the race card' leading to resentment. There are many instances of overt racism where such a term is totally inappropriate but sometimes it's not entirely clear that race or skin colour was the overriding factor in someone not being selected, promoted or appointed.

One final point which I have been thinking about and not sure if it's helpful but one black commentator some time ago used the phrase 'What is needed is more black professionals and fewer professional blacks'. I think he may have been referring to a developing victimhood culture where any failure to achieve a life goal was due to racism rather than aptitude, effort, contacts or let's face it luck. Telling children that they can be anything that they want to be is all well and good but I could never have been a professional basketball player no matter how hard I tried. And that's not down to the colour of my skin.

[mikejee]

Here Here

[Voiceoftreason?]

I agree MJ, good post CAV. No one, including you, needs to preface anything they say or do with ‘being who and what I am’ in an equal society.

[Frank Blank]

Excellent stuff from Joe Biden. I am so hoping he will come out of his bunker and take on Trump. His already dwindling lead is going to evaporate at this rate.

"What you all know but most people don't know, unlike the African American community with notable exceptions, the Latino community is an incredibly diverse community with incredibly different attitudes about different things," Biden said in that interview. "You go to Florida, you find a very different attitude about immigration in certain places than you do when you're in Arizona. So it's a very different, a very diverse community."

[piwacket]

...."You go to Florida, you find a very different attitude about immigration in certain places than you do when you're in Arizona. So it's a very different, a very diverse community."

Umm - should that concern me?

[Mayfield]

I see he has to clarify since...

[joe_smooth]

Biden is leading in the polls Frank. Obviously doesn't mean he'll win it, what with the daft electoral college system, but he is ahead at the moment.

How anyone could vote for the Donald after the shit show of his response to the virus is way beyond me though.

[MickEdge]

Biden is leading in the polls Frank. Obviously doesn't mean he'll win it, what with the daft electoral college system, but he is ahead at the moment.

How anyone could vote for the Donald after the shit show of his response to the virus is way beyond me though.

The end of the Trump Presidency maybe one of the very few gains from the pandemic. I watched a TV interview he gave recently and couldn’t believe how incompetent he was. It staggering that Biden’s polls lead isn’t a lot bigger, but like here, only a few switch sides, regardless of the numpties up for election.

[Mayfield]

Apparently the latest thing is a 'make do with Joe' campaign which isn't encouraging.

What’s frightening is that there seem to be few coming up through the ranks...

[D5equj5]

C.A.V. Nice Post - an interesting and considered view, parts of which resonate well with my own thoughts.

[Mayfield]

Cav, I thought of your post and the black professional and professional black part of your post when I was watching Dawn Butler on the news...
Of course it was racial profiling and not a mistake in entering the reg number ....

[OLDMAN]

I suppose the biggest thing with racism is how / when / why does someone become a racist?
Its not as if your born with it…………

Back when I was a youngster and as I started primary school I realised there where other ‘not-English’ people about – in East Reading the higher number where Eastern Europeans a few German (Jewish) but very few ‘coloured’ (I’m just suing this as a generic term) families, we had 2 West Indian and one Asian lad at school back then, but at least 12 other races - and we were all mates
And never felt worried when around all their families etc
Things seem to change as we got older and going into senior school as by then a lot more ‘coloured’ families about, and more at school, we still had a lot of other countries as well but again all mates to degree
The it was about mid-late 70’s things started too happen – a lot of it was with offshoots within the football ‘firms’ and skinheads but it also seemed to be getting a core set of trouble makers even at that age - I remember a rumour went around about a big after school fight in Palmer Park as being Black vs White
Daft bit was the ‘White’ side was English / Europeans / West India and a few Africans that where about, whereas the ‘Black’ side of it was mostly Asians of a particular ‘religion’ so not true racist, more outright trouble makers, and mainly form that second group – it never happened due to teachers finding out and bringing a police presence in
BUT – in all that I did notice one major thing, it was the ones that really get fired up about it all and started using racist terms that many rarely used before – I did wonder why and where it all came from at the time however one thing I realised a was the ones like that tend to be a bit nasty / bullying / trouble makers etc and seemed to come from that sort of family background – and that was from all sides

So you’re not born racist but something obviously triggers it, maybe family, maybe ‘gangs’ or groups they are in, including religious ones or maybe a very bad experience or following other countries leads (e.g. USA) – or you are just a right nasty person


Which is why it would be so difficult to eradicate it all – being stupid and saying all these so called ‘racist’ things are being banned etc will IMHO make it worse not better as could send it underground where it will fester and come back worse!
What’s required is integrated harmony and education, not banning / hiding it away

[KeithW]

Cav, I thought of your post and the black professional and professional black part of your post when I was watching Dawn Butler on the news...
Of course it was racial profiling and not a mistake in entering the reg number ....

Strange thing to say, what do you think is most likely? I mean on this planet?

[Mayfield]

Since the Met are talking about releasing the footage from the police body cam my thoughts are that it’s even chances either way...however Dawn Butler thinks it’s OK to shout this is racism and it’s a problem in the police before the incident has even been investigated.
That’s not being part of the solution, it’s contributing to the problem.

[OLDMAN]

Cav, I thought of your post and the black professional and professional black part of your post when I was watching Dawn Butler on the news...
Of course it was racial profiling and not a mistake in entering the reg number ....

Strange thing to say, what do you think is most likely? I mean on this planet?

TBH the chances of putting a reg' number in wrong, even by one digit, which actually comes up with the same make / model of car but one that is ‘suspect’ is pretty remote!
And police vehicles usually work on ANPR so no need to ‘type’ a number in

[Mayfield]

I don't know enough about police procedure to judge, but what we do know is that the police are in a no win situation, whatever they do is wrong...( and I'm sure they are far from perfect ) surely in the current BLM atmosphere you'd have to be an extremely stupid police person to stop a car ONLY because the driver was black ?

[joe_smooth]

I don't know enough about police procedure to judge, but what we do know is that the police are in a no win situation, whatever they do is wrong...( and I'm sure they are far from perfect ) surely in the current BLM atmosphere you'd have to be an extremely stupid police person to stop a car ONLY because the driver was black ?

Yet that's what they do. All the time.

[Bentley]

So A Police Officer stops a vehicle and says "I am stopping you because you are black"????
ALL THE TIME

[joe_smooth]

A black person is 9 times more likely to be stop and searched than a white person. Of course they don't tell them they are stopping them because they are black. Well, not all the time anyway. https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/h ... 56526.html

[Mayfield]

I don't know enough about police procedure to judge, but what we do know is that the police are in a no win situation, whatever they do is wrong...( and I'm sure they are far from perfect ) surely in the current BLM atmosphere you'd have to be an extremely stupid police person to stop a car ONLY because the driver was black ?

Yet that's what they do. All the time.

Could it possibly be that if they do it, it’s because past experience has taught them something ?

[joe_smooth]

I don't know enough about police procedure to judge, but what we do know is that the police are in a no win situation, whatever they do is wrong...( and I'm sure they are far from perfect ) surely in the current BLM atmosphere you'd have to be an extremely stupid police person to stop a car ONLY because the driver was black ?

Yet that's what they do. All the time.

Could it possibly be that if they do it, it’s because past experience has taught them something ?

What, that all black people are up to no good?

[Mayfield]

And this is why this issue will never be solved , in a nutshell . Absolutely everything anyone says is 'racist' ....

[joe_smooth]

And this is why this issue will never be solved , in a nutshell . Absolutely everything anyone says is 'racist' ....

Not at all. But you cannot go around pulling over every car with black people in it just because some other black people have been criminals. That is racism! Even the met agree on that which is why they need to come up with odd stories about accidentally typing one letter wrong on the computer which, by utter coincidence was the reg of a car that had committed a crime.

It's racial profiling and it's wrong and it alienates black people that are law abiding. All this BLM stuff hasn't come about because of 'professional black people' you know. It's because of a system that unfairly targets black people and treats them like second class citizens.

Have you read the story of Huugo Boateng? A law abiding young man who is now scared of the police.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... ice-arrest

[MickEdge]

Within the statistics that show BAME people are much more likely to be stopped by the police, isn’t it also true that crime and it’s perpetrators are mostly found in areas with the worst deprivation, where often the percentage of BAME residents is higher than nationally. So it’s not unreasonable to expect or even encourage police to carry out more stops in general, even if they aren’t racial profiling. I find it hard to believe that chief constables and the local station commanders aren’t trying hard, now, to tackle the problem and push the message down the line to the beat bobbies. I’m not suggesting that more doesn’t need to done to train the beat officers and all officers, but maybe the numbers exaggerate the scale of racism in the police, when poverty and it being harder for BAME people to get jobs and be promoted is much more the problem, caused by a general prejudice within the majority white population.

[lizwing]

Surely someone is having a laugh ? A woman has complained that M&S has named a range of bras after colours such as cinnamon, fudge and tobacco. She saw this just after the death of George Floyd and says it was a ‘particularly raw time to see that ‘ it’s the colour tobacco which has upset her because of its negative connotations. She says ‘ It’s hurtful to me and my friends, if a young girl who is already uncomfortable with the colour of her skin sees it she will feel even more alienated. ‘ apparently it would be less racist to use cocoa or chocolate ! I think she’s had too much sun. I’m convinced there are people who sit around all day racking their brains to find something to be offended by but of course M&S have apologised and promised to change it.

[Bentley]

And this is why this issue will never be solved , in a nutshell . Absolutely everything anyone says is 'racist' ....

Hear,hear.

[joe_smooth]

And this is why this issue will never be solved , in a nutshell . Absolutely everything anyone says is 'racist' ....

Hear,hear.

Why do you agree with this? It's nonsense.

[Voiceoftreason?]

And this is why this issue will never be solved , in a nutshell . Absolutely everything anyone says is 'racist' ....

Hear,hear.

Ditto. Or sexist, or ageist, or any other kind of ist. Eye of the beholder and all that.

[joe_smooth]

If you're worried something you are going to say is going to seem racist or ageist or sexist, maybe don't say it or rephrase it. Either that or say it and be prepared for someone to question it.

[Mayfield]

Joe _Smooth, by bet is that I,m a lot older than you...and that is what I have found...I still don't understand why 'All lives matter' is racist ( and I'm assured it is..) .but I happen to think all life should be valued and colour shouldn’t mark you down or raise you up any more than the next person, but apparently that’s wrong.....merit has nothing to do with it....

I’ve said before and Mick Edge alludes to it, my feeling is it’s poverty, across the community that’s the main part of the problem

And as I said at the start, it would have been better all round if Dawn Butler had waited to see what the Met response was before sending footage to various news channels. If the Met have a case to answer , fair enough...we all know they have work to do, but why not wait and see.

Like it or not, she came over as someone who had the whole situation pre judged .