Tackling Racism

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MickEdge
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Re: Tackling Racism

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Voiceoftreason? wrote: 19 Jun 2020 11:20 The Ugandan Asians, which I believe you might include in the 70s refugees, were British passport holders expelled from Uganda by Amin - or Major General Idi Amin Dada, as he styled himself at the time.
Kenya also. After independence Asians were forced into choosing Kenyan citizenship or being treated as second class people and losing this livelihoods, which is why as British subjects most came to the U.K.
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Re: Tackling Racism

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The successes of the second and third generation Kenyan Asians and those from South East Asia has enriched UK life. From medicine to politics, accountancy and the law they have excelled drawing upon the support they have had from parents and grand parents, many of whom arrived in this country with next to nothing apart from a can do attitude. They took full advantage of the UK education system and tend to have stable family relationships.

The test might be the classic third generation problem - grandparent establishes the company and makes it a success, son carries this on having worked alongside his father, grandson is over indulged and squanders the family fortune!
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OLDMAN
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Re: Tackling Racism

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Voiceoftreason? wrote: 19 Jun 2020 11:20
MickEdge wrote: 19 Jun 2020 10:32
windrush wrote: 19 Jun 2020 09:28 It's the people who arrived here as youngsters in the sixties/seventies etc who annoy me, they have come from countries like Africa etc (often war zones) where they must have known about slavery and the UK connection with it yet still came for better education and now seem to be 'biting the hand that fed them' in a big way? That I can't understand. :?
Weren’t the 60/70s immigrants chucked out by or fled from racist regimes in East Africa. Many of them seemed to have slotted in pretty well and make positive contributions to this country from keeping our corner shops going, at all hours, and reducing shortages at all levels of the NHS.
The Ugandan Asians, which I believe you might include in the 70s refugees, were British passport holders expelled from Uganda by Amin - or Major General Idi Amin Dada, as he styled himself at the time. They were forcibly ejected from their own country on pretty much no notice, and sent packing in more or less the clothes they stood up in. Quite a few settled in Reading and yes the did open corner shops - as a kid I used to go and buy my mums fags from the one near Grovelands Road - and the gentleman and this (then 14 year old) wife, worked long hard hours to make a success of the business. In later years, I believe their children did well and went to university etc.

Amin was a dictator and very dangerous man, who for many years persecuted Ugandans who were not ‘of his tribe’, gathering round him troops, ministers and military officials, who were almost exclusively from the same background as him. He was an evil man who ran an evil administration, and those that escaped or were ejected, were on the whole W successful and happy to be in this country.

‘Grateful’ to the country that provided them with shelter isn’t a word I would use in that context. Relieved that they had found sanctuary, happy to be safe and keen to work to give better chances to them and their families, would be better ways of describing their feelings -at least that’s what’s they told me.
Ugandan Asians (Indians) came over in 1972, many came to East Reading, but they also went to Canada, USA and Sweden large number with lees to other countries
A lot where of Sikh background and later Hindu and Muslim - but they tend to very different and follow the old religious ways so not fervently devout
And they all have a hard working background, which has come out more due to many going back to Uganda and becoming prosperous business who got the country off its knees

And the reason I know this is I have many of them as good friends going back to when they first came to Reading, and their subsequent families – and many of them treat me as family!
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Re: Tackling Racism

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joe_smooth wrote: 19 Jun 2020 11:33
Voiceoftreason? wrote: 19 Jun 2020 11:29
joe_smooth wrote: 19 Jun 2020 11:26

How do you know the people windrush is moaning about don't have 'experience'?

And no, I won't stop calling out ignorance. Why should I?
Unless you have direct experience to match his, yours can only ever be second hand, that’s why. Being rude doesn’t help.
I have no idea what windrush's experience is/was. I know what he's posted though, and it's nonsense. Maybe you should let him talk for himself though.
I suggest you read Windrush’s post properly, and OMs and Mick’s. I’m sure if Windrush feels your comments deserve a response, that he will speak for himself - once he’s finished a rather long drive down to see his mother in the home she’s in and driven back again. As he is a gentleman, his response will be a well considered one I’m sure.

Otherwise, I have no problem standing up for a friend whilst they are absent.
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Re: Tackling Racism

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Quite honestly the attacks on Windrush's post are the reason that racism will never be sorted because people won’t discuss it for fear of being attacked....if your experience and opinion don't suit the narrative of the moment someone will quickly tell you that your a dreadful person for daring to have a different opinion. 😡

The discussions about Colston and Rhodes have been informative ....and perhaps critics of those statues remaining may like to reflect that without them the discussion and for many, education, would not have taken place

However my own feeling is as a society we would do better to tackle racism by first tackling poverty, across the board, not just for black people but for everyone. It’s a nonsense that two working parents can''t earn enough to support a family.....( sadly poor timing re Covid and unemployment )
We can each do our best to be more tolerant and not be racist in our day to day to day lives and at the same time institutions such as the police, education systems, the NHS and companies should re examine their operating procedures to make sure everyone gets a fair crack of the whip and jobs and promotions happen on merit ....
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Re: Tackling Racism

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Quite honestly Mayfield, you and your kind live in mud huts, that's if you've come down from the trees. You're lazy, you breed like rabbits, smell, and never wash. You're clearly some sort of low grade genetically inferior animal closer to the monkey than the human. Your place is to serve, and of course you're well used to starving.

That's what racism is. Not just being a bit rude.
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Re: Tackling Racism

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Frankly Keith W I don't think that is the kind of racism that people really care about, because these days it’s just laughable and people who spout that kind of thing are largely derided for their views. Such people are often easy to identify and avoid.

What counts and is insidious is when people are picked on because of their colour and no other reason, ignored when they report crime, not given enough help in school when they have issues, not listened to when they have health symptoms and passed over for interviews, jobs or promotion when their experience and ability is the same as others. And a million other things.....
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Re: Tackling Racism

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I don't agree. That was me when I was young, that was my parents, and that was many, many people. I think it still is, though perhaps less overt. I think it's the EDL or whatever they are now.

I guess you grew up in a more middle-class area than me - that's not meant to be perjorative - but in my day, it was a very common view. My gran would collect car numbers from cars driven by brown-skinned people and hand them in to the police. Really. My mum, when she came to move said that she'd rather go to jail than sell her house to a 'Paki'. (Until a 'very nice' Mr Khan came along with a cash offer.)

People were horrible, many still are.
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Re: Tackling Racism

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Voiceoftreason? wrote: 19 Jun 2020 12:50

I suggest you read Windrush’s post properly, and OMs and Mick’s. I’m sure if Windrush feels your comments deserve a response, that he will speak for himself - once he’s finished a rather long drive down to see his mother in the home she’s in and driven back again. As he is a gentleman, his response will be a well considered one I’m sure.

Otherwise, I have no problem standing up for a friend whilst they are absent.
Cheers Vot, appreciated. Not much I can add really though as folk have already formed their own opinions. Racism is a touchy subject for me as I despise all forms of it and don't like what is happening here now. Of course white folk suffer it as well, although that doesn't seem to be mentioned as much. I really do feel for the black population of this country though (the USA is another world alas and probably beyond our help) because they have had a raw deal from as far back as I can remember but I really can't see that tearing down statues etc and protesting (not peacefully in some cases) is going to help matters much as it seeems to be turning a large proportion of the public against them even more? They are certainly victimised, there is no way that a black Doctor driving his car should be pulled over several times by Police when he has done nothing wrong, the same goes for the black NHS nurse who had the same on her way home from hospital, yet nothing seems to improve on that front. That REALLY annoys me, they should be treated exactly the same as a white person but for some reason they are not and somebody somewhere has to be responsible. :banghead: Same goes for education, despite taking the same exams etc and getting good results coloured candidates appear to get passed over for jobs? Why is that, someone must know and that smacks of racism to me?

For many years I have had some quite heated arguments with work colleagues and former friends who were very racist in their views, I gave one instance in a previous post, but they had that 'mindset' about coloured folk and nothing could change that alas. Ironically very few had actually encountered any as they lived in rural villages but were going by what they had seen in films etc. All were older than me, however the younger generation of people nowadays do seem to (mostly) get along well with each other no matter what their skin colour as they have grown up together at school etc and maybe things will improve in the future here in the UK.

The USA though, I don't know what the answer is as it goes way back in time. One of my hobbies is Hollywood from the thirties to the fifties and the racism there was diabolical. Also showbiz in general in the states: Sammy Davis jr headlining for years yet not allowed to go through the front door of the theatre, Ella Fitzgerald being forced to perform in 'black only' small clubs until Marilyn Monroe stepped in and from then on she became the world renowned star. Michael Caine sunbathing while resting on a film set and asking the black actress Dihanne Carroll if she wanted to swim in the pool with him only to be told that it was a 'whites only pool' so she couldn't go into the water. That was in the 1970's! Even Tom Jones caused upset in his show by singing a love duet with a black singer and actually looking at her while singing, that was against the rules. I fear that things will not change over there for a very long time. :-(

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Re: Tackling Racism

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KeithW wrote: 20 Jun 2020 00:17 I don't agree. That was me when I was young, that was my parents, and that was many, many people. I think it still is, though perhaps less overt. I think it's the EDL or whatever they are now.

I guess you grew up in a more middle-class area than me - that's not meant to be perjorative - but in my day, it was a very common view. My gran would collect car numbers from cars driven by brown-skinned people and hand them in to the police. Really. My mum, when she came to move said that she'd rather go to jail than sell her house to a 'Paki'. (Until a 'very nice' Mr Khan came along with a cash offer.)

People were horrible, many still are.

My mother wouldn,t be verbal about it, and perversely was quite proud that the black US Army members liked coming to the UK because they were often better treated, but in the 50,s and sixties when we started getting Indian and Pakistani immigrants she would cross the road rather than walk on the same bit of pavement. When my daughter had a Pakistani friend she would ask if he ever went home to see his family...well yes, he did...for him Home was Luton 🙂 Pretty odd, as my grandfather told her she had Indian ancestors ( a possibility but difficult to prove ) and in the war he told the billeting officer they'd happily Home a black child.

I do think we have moved on, James Cleverly was reflecting on it on QT on Thursday, his parents were spat on in the street, quite openly, for being a mixed race couple. We have legislation against discrimination but we still have a long way to go in practice....I guess there’s a price for living in such a multi cultural and ethnically diverse society and discrimination is part of it
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Re: Tackling Racism

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Mayfield wrote: 20 Jun 2020 06:54


My mother wouldn,t be verbal about it, and perversely was quite proud that the black US Army members liked coming to the UK because they were often better treated, but in the 50,s and sixties when we started getting Indian and Pakistani immigrants she would cross the road rather than walk on the same bit of pavement. When my daughter had a Pakistani friend she would ask if he ever went home to see his family...well yes, he did...for him Home was Luton 🙂 Pretty odd, as my grandfather told her she had Indian ancestors ( a possibility but difficult to prove ) and in the war he told the billeting officer they'd happily Home a black child.

I do think we have moved on, James Cleverly was reflecting on it on QT on Thursday, his parents were spat on in the street, quite openly, for being a mixed race couple. We have legislation against discrimination but we still have a long way to go in practice....I guess there’s a price for living in such a multi cultural and ethnically diverse society and discrimination is part of it
During my long drive yesterday I thought about when Reading first started getting immigrants from Asia etc as opposed to the white immigrants that had been here for a long time. I don't remember them causing any problems, they tended to group together anyway, but many folk did resent them and I never understood why? Was it just skin colour, or how they lived their lives, or was it just because they were 'over here' that annoyed people? They seemed to work so that wasn't the issue. I know there were a few living locally to us in College Road, West Indians more than Asians, and you could have a laugh with them. However when they used to knock our door around 10pm wanting their cars repaired I did draw the line there! I was very friendly with an Anglo Indian lad, his father was Indian but mother was white, and the father was very educated and had a good job as (I think?) a lecturer. The lad was a laugh a minute, we used to go out for drives in his various cars to pubs etc and he let me drive them occasionally even though I had no licence. :whistle1: I wasn't aware of any racial talk around them despite being mixed marriage/race but in my later life I realised that there probably had been, possibly on both of their families sides? I don't know what became of them, the lad worked as a porter at Reading station but was older than me and would be long retired.

As I said there are very few black or Asian folk around here, however last year we were exhibiting vintage machinery with our club at a large event at a Stately Home near us and there was a black family standing watching our machines pumping water or sawing metal etc. That doesn't happen often anyway, you don't see many black or Asian families at vintage events or steam fairs. Anyway our chairman 'Dave' (not his real name) , a chap in his eighties and with a 'Brian Blessed' type voice remarked that "they have had a good dose of the tar brush" and the father briefly looked up but said nothing! Anyway they moved on and I said to 'Dave' "that wasn't a nice thing to say". He remarked that they were very black and to be honest that was true. He couldn't see that what he said could be racist but replied "well I don't even know them so how can I hate them, isn't racism based purely on hate?" I couldn't really answer that as it's partly true, folk hate the race and not the actual people. :?

Changing tack: with all these protests about signs/statues etc how has 'The Black Boy' ph at Shinfield fared? I seem to remember an issue with it a few years ago but didn't know the outcome?

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Re: Tackling Racism

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My FIL is the same, WR. Clearly a racist bigot and is challenged every time they spout their clap trap. Age doesn’t give them the right to comment on anyone else on that basis. If they want to talk like that do it at home and when I can’t hear. I’m not interested in getting into a debate with them as to whether they are right or wrong to call someone a coolie, a polak or has a touch of the tar brush or indeed is a poof (these words are here to illustrate what I am confronted with, and are not words I use) - I want them to understand spouting off like that outside of the house, puts them at risk, and that their age won’t save them from an attack by someone.

Racism isn’t just about colour nd not an exclusively black issue. There are times when I’ve been discriminated against. In fact I was advised not to put my full name (which I hate anyway) on any job application form, as it ‘sounds black’.
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Re: Tackling Racism

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The Black Boy at Shinfield - gives an explanation ....
https://www.baronspubs.com/blackboy/about/

... when it was changing hands a couple or so years ago, you may recollect there were the inevitable calls to change the name! The pub/licensee - whoever, won the argument not to :)
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by C.A.Versham »

Interesting point about former generations. Should I, or this or any Government, be held responsible for the views of previous generations? Surely it is what we are doing in the here and now that counts so that racism is called out and discrimination, by any group on any group, stamped upon.

Anecdote alert.

For my father's generation some found it hard to accept a change in their community. They lived in London in a quiet cul de sac, knew everyone, had their friends and kept themselves to themselves. Had been through the war together and my father, who had seen terrible things in Burma which he rarely spoke about, had no time for the Japanese or those in Germany who had succumbed to the fascist rhetoric. He also viewed Churchill as a chancher but the right man at the right time to lead the country during the war. He was not at all surprised by the outcome of the immediate post war general election.

A house opposite was let to a family recently arrived from the West Indies. Seemed cheerful but then the late night parties and loud music started. It drove my parents mad. They raised it with them but were ignored. So my parents moved out of London. I visited the street about fifteen years ago and, as a white person I was stared at, comments muttered under the breath and felt quite uneasy. Visited again last year and felt much more comfortable and had a nice meal in a cafe run by a Portuguese couple as the community had evolved yet again.
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Re: Tackling Racism

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Just to point out, some of what I might call the more conservative (with a small or large C) population keep banging on about "pulling down statues" etc.
BLM have not asked for any significant statues to be "pulled down" they aren't even really an organisation as such

ONE statue in Bristol was pulled down- after decades of polite petitions etc. Perhaps 25-50 people?
ONE person graffiti 'd Churchill - which was cleaned by a black guy ironically named Winston. (After a couple of white Tory MPs posed for pictures that implied they were cleaning it)

There's a certain "fit of the vapours" around the whole statue thing. Personally I think most controversial ones should be retained - but put into context. Possibly moved so that the context is easier to understand. the Rhodes' statue hasn't been torn down, Oriel has agreed to move it after protests. Arguments about "if you don't like it, don't take the money " are unfair. It wasn't until the late 60's that more than a token black African got a chance. Perhaps that was because so many felt such disgust at the source that they didn't even consider it. Perhaps those that did apply felt that they were due a bit of payback.
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by C.A.Versham »

If BLM is not an organisation as such who is going to determine how this money is spent?

https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/202 ... ups-top-1m
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Re: Tackling Racism

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C.A.Versham wrote: 20 Jun 2020 12:45 Interesting point about former generations. Should I, or this or any Government, be held responsible for the views of previous generations? Surely it is what we are doing in the here and now that counts so that racism is called out and discrimination, by any group on any group, stamped upon.

Anecdote alert.

For my father's generation some found it hard to accept a change in their community. They lived in London in a quiet cul de sac, knew everyone, had their friends and kept themselves to themselves. Had been through the war together and my father, who had seen terrible things in Burma which he rarely spoke about, had no time for the Japanese or those in Germany who had succumbed to the fascist rhetoric.

A house opposite was let to a family recently arrived from the West Indies. Seemed cheerful but then the late night parties and loud music started. It drove my parents mad. They raised it with them but were ignored. So my parents moved out of London. I visited the street about fifteen years ago and, as a white person I was stared at, comments muttered under the breath and felt quite uneasy. Visited again last year and felt much more comfortable and had a nice meal in a cafe run by a Portuguese couple as the community had evolved yet again.
I can relate with that, in the seventies a comedian (can't remember who) used to say in his act on tv that "he saw two Birmingham locals beating up a white guy" and I think that in some inner city areas that wasn't far from the truth. Another was 'I went to my old pub recently and it was full of black people, I said to the landlord that at one time it had a race bar but he replied that it still has, get out'. Of course that wouldn't be allowed these days, and rightly so. I have been in places in Manchester etc delivering tarmac to council gangs and been instructed to stay in my cab and lock both doors as there were a lot of black people there who didn't like white folk on 'their' streets but accepted that repairs had to be done so allowed the council lads access. That didn't help black/white relations one bit, and I could feel the tension and also see faces at windows watching us closely. i imagined that parts of New York etc would be exactly the same and didn't envy any Police having to deal with problems in those areas.

When my parents lived in Liverpool Road and we used to visit them every few months there was a house a few doors along that had loud music blaring day and night. The windows were open and it was really annoying. Black youths lived there, despite many complaints by residents nothing was ever done, however one day when we were there this large black car stopped outside the house, nobody got out but there was a lot of shouting and the music stopped. The car drove off and the music stayed stopped! Somebody had a lot of power it would seem! :wink:

Dad got on very well with the coloured lads he worked with on the Alder Valley busses, he had a brilliant sense of humour as Oldman can confirm and joked with them a lot. Also he had no issues with Germans despite fighting them for six years as he said they were just ordinary soldiers who didn't want war anymore than he did, and he later drove several tours with the coach into Germany. He also married a girl who is half Italian, although born in Caversham, he seemed quite at ease with anyone really and I guess I am like him in that way?

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Re: Tackling Racism

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C.A.Versham wrote: 20 Jun 2020 12:45 Interesting point about former generations. Should I, or this or any Government, be held responsible for the views of previous generations? Surely it is what we are doing in the here and now that counts so that racism is called out and discrimination, by any group on any group, stamped upon.
No! We we shouldn’t! That was then- deal with the ‘here and now’ as you say... no more than we send children up chimneys etc
C.A.Versham wrote: 20 Jun 2020 12:45 For my father's generation some found it hard to accept a change in their community. They lived in London in a quiet cul de sac, knew everyone, had their friends and kept themselves to themselves. Had been through the war together and my father, who had seen terrible things in Burma which he rarely spoke about, had no time for the Japanese or those in Germany who had succumbed to the fascist rhetoric. He also viewed Churchill as a chancher but the right man at the right time to lead the country during the war. He was not at all surprised by the outcome of the immediate post war general election.
Similarly we have a dear friend who served in Burma.... he talks little of the time, except if something prompts him to relate incidents ... the cruelty, the survival tactics in the jungle... so hard to stomach now ...
C.A.Versham wrote: 20 Jun 2020 12:45 A house opposite was let to a family recently arrived from the West Indies. Seemed cheerful but then the late night parties and loud music started. It drove my parents mad. They raised it with them but were ignored. So my parents moved out of London. I visited the street about fifteen years ago and, as a white person I was stared at, comments muttered under the breath and felt quite uneasy. Visited again last year and felt much more comfortable and had a nice meal in a cafe run by a Portuguese couple as the community had evolved yet again.
Our road has undergone similar changes - apart from the end we live. Friends who live further down relate similar problems and are looking to move. Sadly it’s not just many of the traditions many have, but the actual look of some of the properties.... it’s a quiet residential area... or was mostly! Most have large front gardens, but keeping them looking good often seems to have little priority now ... instead there are questionable add-on extensions, which the council seem to turn a blind eye to! Applications made to build a ‘prayer room’ which end up as massive 3 or 4 room extensions! Again no questions asked (apart from neighbours) ... none of which does much for Community relations! Especially when one white couple in a semi-Det. applied to extend because they then had two children, and were refused! They of course moved away.
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Re: Tackling Racism

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dave m wrote: 20 Jun 2020 13:02 Perhaps that was because so many felt such disgust at the source that they didn't even consider it.
Snipped

If that is the case, then why have we not heard of their disquiet before? Many Rhodes scholars are from the Indian subcontinent, Japan, and many other countries, they weren’t just black - therefore I’d have to question if it was tokenism. There would be quite a number of tokens, if so.

I guess the fact remains that as a country where the population is predominantly white, then proportionately you might anticipate a reflection of that percentage in any organisation or as recipients wouldn’t you? What is the ethnic population percentages broken down and is that reflected in the make up of the organisation? Would you therefore expect a similar mix of recipients of scholarships? The question then would be if not, why not.

As I may have said before, the Fire Service does returns on the ethnic mix and genders of their fire fighters. They will never reach their ‘target’ of recruiting BAME firefighters and/or women firefighters (of any ethnicity). Why is this? Because the Fire Service pretty much doesn’t recruit any more. As cars have become safer, there are statistically less accidents. As houses have smoke detectors, there are less people need rescuing - although the houses may still be lost. When they do recruit, big efforts are made to recruit BAME and women applicants. Sadly, they just don’t seem to come forward for front one work, although they are represented as expected, in admin and control room roles.
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Re: Tackling Racism

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dave m wrote: 20 Jun 2020 13:02 Just to point out, some of what I might call the more conservative (with a small or large C) population keep banging on about "pulling down statues" etc.
BLM have not asked for any significant statues to be "pulled down" they aren't even really an organisation as such

ONE statue in Bristol was pulled down- after decades of polite petitions etc. Perhaps 25-50 people?
ONE person graffiti 'd Churchill - which was cleaned by a black guy ironically named Winston. (After a couple of white Tory MPs posed for pictures that implied they were cleaning it)

There's a certain "fit of the vapours" around the whole statue thing. Personally I think most controversial ones should be retained - but put into context. Possibly moved so that the context is easier to understand. the Rhodes' statue hasn't been torn down, Oriel has agreed to move it after protests. Arguments about "if you don't like it, don't take the money " are unfair. It wasn't until the late 60's that more than a token black African got a chance. Perhaps that was because so many felt such disgust at the source that they didn't even consider it. Perhaps those that did apply felt that they were due a bit of payback.
I agree Dave, I think there was a massive over reaction to it all. Erasing all the physical reminders still can't change the past which is the point I tried to make originally. There is good and bad history everywhere, nothing can alter that and we must learn from it and work to the future. Hopefully the current slave trade that is still going on can be eradicated more than looking to rewrite the past? I honestly don't think that many white folk in the UK would know or even care about Rhodes dealings anyway until recent happenings raised the issue, and the same goes for Baden Powell and others with skeletons in their cupboards.

Pete.
˙˙˙ʎɐqǝ ɯoɹɟ pɹɐoqʎǝʞ ɐ ʎnq ı ǝɯıʇ ʇsɐl ǝɥʇ sı sıɥʇ
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Voiceoftreason?
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by Voiceoftreason? »

This is true WR. I am not personally responsible for what did or didn’t happen during the slave trades. Nor will I feel guilty about it - there’s nothing to feel guilty about. It’s part of history and as you say.

As for learning from it, there are plenty of examples of modern slavery happening all over the world, in all sorts of cultures. Why not work to stop that. We can’t go backwards, we can’t undo wherever Barclays, or Lloyd’s of London’s or any other organisation got their money from centuries ago.

Likewise there are gender inequalities and religious beliefs that kill tens of thousands of women every year, if not hundreds of thousands all over the world. Closer to home, Young women and girls are groomed by gangs for sexual exploitation, vulnerable men are held in servitude or paid next to nothing for working on the roads or for families.

Racism is not an exclusively white ‘problem’. I would venture to suggest it is an inherent part of being human - such that anyone not of your race or ‘tribe’ or doesn’t hold the same belief system as you do, for example, is a threat and therefor to be feared/removed.

Someone’s race, like someone’s gender, is pretty obvious, and there will always be ‘isms’ as long as we are not all one tribe. The States has a dreadful race problem, and it’s entrenched on both sides. The U.K. is a far far more tolerant society.

I would prefer those being vocal about ‘justice’ and ‘change’ would quantify what they mean by those things. What change do they want and what do they mean by justice? Be part of the solution, not shout about the problem.

Otherwise everyone is working blindfold.
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mikejee
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by mikejee »

While being completely against racism, I completely agree that people 300 years later have no responsibility for it, though present day bigots bare
a lot of responsibility for some present events. One point that seems to have conveniently been omitted in discussions is that the "slave trade" originated with Arab (Muslim?) traders . The trade was then extended by the greedy merchants of Bristol and Liverpool. In both cases it was supported by the two religions, who, at the time, controlled the hearts and minds of their peoples. So should we pull down religious icons as well. Of course not.
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Voiceoftreason?
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by Voiceoftreason? »

Think the Romans were quite keen on slaves as well MJ. And if we could know, you can be pretty sure the cave men used to keep conquered enemies as slaves - that is, if they hadn’t killed or eaten them.

Subjugation of one group, by another, is human nature, irrespective of who the groups are.initially it would have been a matter of survival, then things like taking war trophies either for sex or breeding (.brits are probably amongst the most mongrel of peoples, considering how many other races have a true onetime conquered or another bred with ‘native’ brits) or for unpaid servants (slaves if you like).

Organised slavery in terms of trade, has been going in for a very long time, and in some places in the world, will do for a very long time to come.
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mikejee
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by mikejee »

Too true. The Roman case , or its suggestion , caused a bit of an uproar amongst forty years ago in a play , Romans in Britain, written by an old school friend of mine
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by MickEdge »

Voiceoftreason? wrote: 20 Jun 2020 13:47 Racism is not an exclusively white ‘problem’. I would venture to suggest it is an inherent part of being human - such that anyone not of your race or ‘tribe’ or doesn’t hold the same belief system as you do, for example, is a threat and therefor to be feared/removed.
I agree and because it is innate, all we can hope is that the vast majority of us learn to suppress that side of us. It’s not helped by the major world religions, whose attitudes rely on a dogma that is based on the political, economic and social systems that existed over a millennium ago.
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by Pooneil »

Voiceoftreason? wrote: 20 Jun 2020 13:47This is true WR. I am not personally responsible for what did or didn’t happen during the slave trades. Nor will I feel guilty about it - there’s nothing to feel guilty about. It’s part of history and as you say.
I do feel rather guilty about my taxes being used to pay off slave traders, though. Thankfully that has now finished.
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by Frank Blank »

One perspective on how this country is slowly sinking into a cesspit of political correctness.

In short, racism is perfectly fine, so long as you are on the 'victim' side of the fence. And if you can pontificate (as a 'victim') from a position of privilege - because your guilt-ridden white 'masters' allow you to do so - then so much the better, as the ongoing row regarding the Cambridge University Prof, bears testimony to.

https://unherd.com/2020/06/cambridge-un ... n-bigotry/
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by GaryyHill »

It's good we're discussing history and migration of people from different parts of the world to the UK.

I wonder if our education system will be updated to reflect the contribution of the Commonwealth countries in helping the British Empire, and also helping UK post WW1 and WW2?

Does anyone work in companies where they are giving more awareness of cultures to staff?
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by BOY RACER »

GaryyHill wrote: 03 Aug 2020 20:09 It's good we're discussing history and migration of people from different parts of the world to the UK.

I wonder if our education system will be updated to reflect the contribution of the Commonwealth countries in helping the British Empire, and also helping UK post WW1 and WW2?

Does anyone work in companies where they are giving more awareness of cultures to staff?
OK Garry so tell me and by me I mean a white English man living in England :-

a) What has the Irish Traveller living in this country contributed to it?

b) what has the Black man living in this country contributed to it.?
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by Mayfield »

GaryyHill wrote: 03 Aug 2020 20:09 It's good we're discussing history and migration of people from different parts of the world to the UK.

I wonder if our education system will be updated to reflect the contribution of the Commonwealth countries in helping the British Empire, and also helping UK post WW1 and WW2?

Does anyone work in companies where they are giving more awareness of cultures to staff?
How old do you think we are...we learnt about the Commonwealth, their contribution etc, when I was at school and I I left in 1967 (or at least what had happened until that time. ) ...🙄

But my recollection is apart from a few Polish people and Czechs most immigrants seemed to be from Commonwealth countries rather than worldwide...
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by piwacket »

PC49 wrote: 03 Aug 2020 21:23

OK Garry so tell me and by me I mean a white English man living in England :-

a) What has the Irish Traveller living in this country contributed to it?

b) what has the Black man living in this country contributed to it.?
a) yes questionable
b) their community has certainly kept the NHS going... so maybe my question would be major or significant ... contribution ?
Poo will no doubt inform us :)
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by OLDMAN »

a. Very little to nothing
But we mustn’t mix them up with Irish immigrants (as many seem to do) as many came over to help build roads etc –the M4 was mostly built by Irish labourers and I know quite a few of them, many of which are good close friends
b. Quite a lot and stuff many don’t realise / think about -
The Windrush generation is a good example – they were immigrants who were ‘invited’ to the UK between 1948 and 1971 from Caribbean countries such as Jamaica, Trinidad and Tobago and Barbados to help due to lack of home workers
Many took on menial / low paid jobs that British workers didn’t seem to want and so helped bolster the economy of the time
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by MickEdge »

All this reminds me of “Whatever did the Romans do for us”. Immigration has overall been beneficial to this country. In general those that come here are harder working, entrepreneurial and more motivated to succeed than the indigenous people who have lived here for several generations. As a result, whether they succeed or fail their presence is resented by some, often too many people. Because most immigrants have either a different skin colour, religion or speak differently they get lumped together and this allows to racism to thrive. Rewriting our history books is not the simple answer, but education in general is. People come here because this country offers better opportunities, so there has to be some level of restraint imposed, but once they are here let’s accept that they are likely to help improve the country. My worry is when they start not wanting to come, then we will know something’s wrong here.
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by dave m »

OK Garry so tell me and by me I mean a white English man living in England

b) what has the Black man living in this country contributed to it.?
[/quote]

Jesus H!
I am speechless (nearly)

What have You contributed to it?
Will it have the same effect as these people?
https://royalsociety.org/topics-policy/ ... cientists/

https://www.bbc.co.uk/bbcthree/article/ ... a4368ef839
dave m
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by dave m »

piwacket wrote: 03 Aug 2020 22:28
PC49 wrote: 03 Aug 2020 21:23

OK Garry so tell me and by me I mean a white English man living in England :-

a) What has the Irish Traveller living in this country contributed to it?

b) what has the Black man living in this country contributed to it.?
a) yes questionable
b) their community has certainly kept the NHS going... so maybe my question would be major or significant ... contribution ?
Poo will no doubt inform us :)
Unbelievable that this thread is called "tackling racism " yet some contributors seem stuck in the past and hold weird views better suited to a golf club clubhouse.

https://www.theguardian.com/uk/2008/oct ... ntity.race

Anybody who imagines that the only contribution that a Black British citizen can make "might" be in the NHS (presumably as a cleaner?) clearly doesn't live in the same world that I do.
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