Tackling Racism

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GaryyHill
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Tackling Racism

Post by GaryyHill »

In the news today a footballer cannot wait to quit his profession due to racism
https://news.sky.com/story/england-star ... m-11684633

It's a shame that as a kid you dream of doing something but feel the need to give it up because of many* idiots.
*I use this word as having worked in football its very racist and sexist, and the FA still has an old boys mentally which is disturbing.

However, what can we as a society do to tackle racism, whether its blatant or subtle?
In your home/college/workplace, do you discuss this or challenge people who are offensive to certain groups in society based on the colour of their skin or background?
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windrush
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by windrush »

Racism isn't really an issue in our area (Derbyshire Dales) as there are only a handful of 'coloured' families and it is rare to actually see any of them. Many Greek, Italian etc but they have been here longer than me. I do see the news reports though and it is a problem that never seems to go away. I remember Reading in the sixties when it started to become more multi racial and I also remember the name calling etc that was aimed at the Asian families who mostly lived on or off of the Oxford Road area. I was friendly with an Anglo/Indian family who lived in College Road (they had also been here for years, the mother was white) and the lad used to take the mickey out of his race/colour something rotten and folk laughed with him but that was a rarity. It would be frowned upon nowadays, the world (at least in the UK) has now gone very PC and I don't think that is a particularly good thing either but I don't know what the answer is? :shrug1:

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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by wirewiper »

It is disheartening that racism (and its equally unappetising stable companions, sexism and homophobia) still thrive and are becoming emboldened once again. Until about ten years ago we were making great progress on these and I was looking forward to when they were no longer part of mainstream thinking or attitudes.

If we want to tackle racism, also sexism and homophobia, we just have to keep fighting, fight harder, and call it out and challenge it wherever we can.
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by Tommy »

When I went to school back in the 80s/90s - we had quite a lot of pupils from BAME backgrounds - there was never any hint of racism, especially from the white pupils. We did have problems with a black gang who stuck together and bullied quite a lot of pupils, whether that was racism I don't know.

However, it was never constantly pointed out that anyone from a BAME background were different. We all just got on with it. Now you can't escape people pointing out they're different because of sexual orientation, skin colour, religion etc. I wonder if this is counterproductive in tackling these problems....it's a question I often ponder.
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by GaryyHill »

I didn't attend the rally yesterday but saw it on the news and from friends. It seems a massive age divide: younger people are fed of discrimination of any kind and really want to make the change, whereas it seems older people are set in there old ways or judging others. Maybe we can blame Thatcher/Tories for causing a split.

Its good to see the demo (the lack of social distancing can be discussed in the COVID-19 forum thread) but ultimately the senior politicians and company executives need to change there ways and be more open. Having worked with various politicians in my time I know from personal experience having been in private conversations with them what they really think of ethnic minorities and certain regions of the UK.
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Re: Tackling Racism

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Frankly Gary I'm sick and tired of this topic mainly because of the way it’s being dealt with by those who say they want to stop racism.
I would respectfully suggest that older people, far from being 'set in their ways ' a) have been this way before and may be of the opinion that protests like this achieve very little b) Don't want to risk getting Covid after doing what they have been told for several months. In addition a disproportionate percentage of the BAME community have died from Covid and there’s a theory that it’s because these workers are on the front line ...so should their be a spike the chances are they could be the group most affected...that’s perverse.

The very slogan 'Black Lives Matter ' seems confrontational ...don't all lives matter ?
Recently one much used local FB group has had an admin posting about this event, expressions have included 'Silence is Compliance' and 'if you are not with us your against us'
If anyone questions her view...to suggest the dangers of demonstrating at this time for example, they turn off comments...
This mornings rant was about how people weren't posting as much about supporting this as they did after Caroline Flacks death 😡

Like every other form of discrimination racial discrimination is a terrible thing and needs addressing, while some progress has been made, more has to be done but for my feeling that this is very largely down to education at school, in the home and wider community and also legislation....being confrontational doesn't help...We can all tackle casual, every day, racism and pressure our representatives to push for change ....but that takes persuasion not this kind of aggressive stance some are taking.

Btw - this guy also died...yet no one even comments
https://nj1015.com/racial-attack-victim ... 0FYn_NPgWY
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by dave m »

Mayfield- are you aware of the origin of that picture?

The whole BLM thing is because of the predominantly American chasm between the treatment of black and white people.
It's better here but there is still discrimination and it's right to point it (the uk situation) out and show support for the demonstrations in the USA.

Various people have raised questions about demos and lack of social distancing but were a lot quieter when faced with pictures of crowded beaches. Masks were worn at one, not the other
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by Pooneil »

Mayfield wrote: 06 Jun 2020 13:36The very slogan 'Black Lives Matter ' seems confrontational ...don't all lives matter ?
yes, but if you look at the statistics in the States, where the name originated, you could be forgiven for thinking that black lives don't matter. There are countless cases of black Americans coming off very badly at the hands of the police, in ways that an average white citizen wouldn't. (Some American police can be very trigger-happy, and not just with black people. Research estimates suggest that US cops shoot between 20-30 dogs every day, usually citing that the dog is aggressive and making them fear for their safety. Even small dogs like chihuahuas have been shot for being "aggressive".
Mayfield wrote: 06 Jun 2020 13:36Btw - this guy also died...yet no one even comments
https://nj1015.com/racial-attack-victim ... 0FYn_NPgWY
It's a grim case, I remember hearing about it at the time. The apparent perpetrator was a convicted criminal, and also may have had mental issues. Doesn't excuse him, although the American prison system is notorious for exacerbating racist behaviour. It's also a relative rarity. More to the point, this was an apparently racist murder committed by a criminal who was probably not exactly a productive member of society. People being killed by criminal lowlifes, whether for racist reasons or otherwise, are not exactly unexpected. BLM are protesting in many cases black people being killed by public servants on the taxpayers' payroll.
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by Mayfield »

To an extent I agree, but isn't it institutionalised racism within the police force and police brutality that we should be specifically protesting about ?

To be honest we have been watching the Sky coverage of the London demos ...it’s very saddening because a few trouble makers have ruined what was for hours a peaceful, even if not a socially distanced, demonstration. Organisers must know that the violence rather than the cause, is what is likely to be on the front Pages in tomorrow’s press.....it just takes one...( which rather makes me wonder if the one that set off the trouble wasn't somehow encouraged to do so...( .but then I have a suspicious mind.. )
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by C.A.Versham »

Yes, it's the picture certain elements of the press all want. Very predictable sadly.
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by THC »

I’d certainly rather be white than black if I ever had to deal with the police

Rather than dismantle white privilege I would want to share privilege with all. I’m not a fan of identity politics either on the oppressed or suppressed side of the argument. However it’s certainly easy to make that point having never been called a n——r.

Earlier in my life I dated a black lady. In many ways we were very alike in terms of values / views / personality etc. However I’d never and I guess could never walk in her shoes. She once told me how her mum had told her brother “don’t wear a hoodie, don’t answer back or front to police, don’t give anybody an excuse or a hint of a reason to create trouble where there is none.”

Her brother trained with a local rugby club and nearly went pro. Now he is an IT expert and into the usual London millennial pastimes of CrossFit / weekend brunch etc. However I bet if me and he dressed the same way and drove the same car he’d get the police attention. That isn’t right.

There was a very good interview with ex Newcastle goalkeeper and Trinidad international Shaka Hislop on BBC Radio 5 this afternoon which was very eloquent and covered the BLM movement very well. Worth finding on “the guest list” podcast or via BBC sounds
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Re: Tackling Racism

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... Reading about the Police and their horses being injured how brave is that? - to attack poor defenceless animals! Like those poor Guardsmen’s horses in Hyde Park with the IRA - oooh makes me so sad and furious - b’tards! :banghead:

... and inevitably I suppose, the statue of Colston in Bristol has been pulled down and thrown in the river

They are just despicable louts! ... or Rent-a-mob
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by C.A.Versham »

The statue of Colston has been a focus for controversy for years. He made money from trading slaves and from many other activities which were common at the time. He set up numerous charities and funded hospitals, schools and other ventures. There has been a long running issue of what to put on a plaque to explain his philanthropy but also his association with the slave trade. As such the statue has become symbolic of the guilt felt about past deeds and it's no surprise that those who wanted it gone used today to achieve their aim (A public vote had resulted in a small majority wanting the statue to be kept but hey what does that matter).

It will be interesting if this becomes a trend. Many figures who have been commentated in statues have something dubious in their past as judged by modern standards. Oliver Cromwell, 'Bomber' Harris, Churchill, Gandhi.
Perhaps they should all be removed to a park where entry is restricted rather than stand in public places to act as a lightning rod for activists.
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Re: Tackling Racism

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C.A.Versham wrote: 07 Jun 2020 18:06 The statue of Colston has been a focus for controversy for years. He made money from trading slaves and from many other
... that’s why I said inevitably CaV.

And together with statues, some of the blue plaques too maybe?

“The past is another country” springs to mind... so many things we now don’t do because they are horrendous to contemplate ... too many to name, but sure you get my meaning. Do we wipe the History books clean too? ... including the fact that many of the black slaves were ‘made available’ by their own people, who traded them like bags of corn? That doesn’t often get mentioned....
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by lizwing »

I wonder if any arrests will be made? After all, regardless of your feelings about Colton, surely this was criminal damage or vandalism or don’t the police want to upset anyone? If that’s the case what’s to stop anyone vandalising anything they don’t like? They’re a bunch of hooligans.
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by C.A.Versham »

It points to the need for well informed, balanced education on these issues in schools and colleges. Some may not wish to hear about the involvement of Arab slave traders or those from other African tribes but the trade would not have existed without the desire for cheap labour in the then Colonies, made real by the merchants and traders of Bristol and elsewhere.
History is seldom straightforward, seldom clear (Was King John a bad king?) with events often reinterpreted by authors with a particular perspective (or a book to sell).
It's all down to education and a willingness to listen, something often missing in a mob whipped up by activists and who find encouragement through likes on social media.

I did wonder, knowing about this in advance, why the statues of Colston and Churchill were not cordoned off or covered. Perhaps the Police took the view that toppling the statue would act as a safety valve and then everyone would go home for tea.
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Re: Tackling Racism

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C.A.Versham wrote: 07 Jun 2020 20:02 It points to the need for well informed, balanced education on these issues in schools and colleges. Some may not wish to hear ....

I did wonder, knowing about this in advance, why the statues of Colston and Churchill were not cordoned off or covered. Perhaps the Police took the view that toppling the statue would act as a safety valve and then everyone would go home for tea.
Oh yes, agree CaV - ‘cherry picking’ through History was ever thus, to suit what ever reason, maybe even the teachers’ own agendas, plus, as you say the various interpretations over the years. And maybe some turning of a blind eye to certain ‘unsavoury facts’ for whatever cause or reason. You say the demand was there for cheap labour - it doesn’t excuse the complicity of those who made them available - for a price. But there again, that’s not the whole story either, because the, then, owners also nurtured the ‘market’ etc,etc, as did governments who later compensated them for their losses.
Maybe the same argument can be made about the great Mill Owners, using cheap labour - little children and impoverished females,,, and the Mine Owners and there again the list is endless of people who perpetrated those practices to build great fortunes?

If the Police or whoever worked on that principle they too should be challenged. The statues are public property, may well have been built and erected by some public funds (taxes, donations or whatever) .... similar applies to the Rhodes memorabilia in Oxford.... a Rhodes Scholarship which many from the US and other countries are only too pleased to be awarded as and when - but hypocritically state their abhorrence of the man.
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by C.A.Versham »

The policeman in charge in Bristol has said that they did not intervene as it would have led to greater disorder. That's all right then. There is a terrible statue of Oscar Wilde in London that I do not like as a work of art so I now know what to do.
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by Fed-up »

piwacket wrote: 07 Jun 2020 17:33 ... Reading about the Police and their horses being injured how brave is that? - to attack poor defenceless animals! Like those poor Guardsmen’s horses in Hyde Park with the IRA - oooh makes me so sad and furious - b’tards! :banghead:

... and inevitably I suppose, the statue of Colston in Bristol has been pulled down and thrown in the river

They are just despicable louts! ... or Rent-a-mob
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Re: Tackling Racism

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C.A.Versham wrote: 07 Jun 2020 22:22 The policeman in charge in Bristol has said that they did not intervene as it would have led to greater disorder.
Huh! So they gave in to mob violence? :help3:

As for your other thoughts, I could have a field day during the Turner Prize exhibitions :whistle1: :))
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by Mayfield »

Lol...you could make THAT bed 🙂
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Re: Tackling Racism

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Personally I have never been keen on statues. Many look pretty awful, and even worse after the pigeons have flown over them. Many are erected for the self-satisfaction of those they portray or the supporters of those they portray, the endless statues of kings and queens being a good example. The only real purpose often seems to be to give employment to sculptors
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Re: Tackling Racism

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Mikejee...if we are going to talk about 'self satisfaction' perhaps we should discuss just what the protesters think they are going to achieve ? In many cases I'm afraid my feeling is they are doing it for themselves, so they can say they did 'something' even if that something wastes police time and in this case risks lives, and possibly the lives of the very people they love and care for .😟 In fact their aim is so general that it’s hard to know specifically what they want, except for things to be better...and we all want that. There is no one thing anyone can say 'OK, you've won, you can do X' No, instead it will be yet more reports, investigations, white papers etc...to tell us what we already know...
Change comes day after grinding day through education and legislation....there is no magic wand, no Disney 'cure'

Further more if it’s OK for a group just to decide they don't like a figure in history for any reason, they can just destroy it and nothing will happen...the police will just watch....that creates a dangerous precedent.
At that rate I shouldn't think Mrs Thatchers statue is going to last long..🙄

There also seems to be something going badly wrong in our police force...on the one hand black people feel targeted and picked on, yet on the other we had Rotherham where the police seemed inhibited by the idea they could be accused of being racist because the perpetrators of dreadful crimes toward mainly underage white girls were Pakistani. Tonight we had a policeman just let that statue be damaged, if not destroyed without lifting a finger...something is askew....
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by windrush »

I assume that those protesting in Bristol and destroying the statue have never attended any functions at Colston Hall either? That would be rather hypocritical. However I see that the hall is now going to be renamed when it reopens this year, they are asking the public for suggestions. :?
I have no issues with statues etc, I like some and am indifferent to others (if I even bother to look at them anyway!) but they certainly don't upset me to the extent of wanting to destroy them, and even if I did it wouldn't alter the course of history anyway as that is done and dusted. There are many skeletons in cupboards the whole world over. Live and let live has always been my take on life and I have never found anything that upset me so much that I would want to protest about it to the extent of rent a mob.

Here in the East Midlands cities there is a lot of knife (and gun) crime and the vast majority of it is carried out by blacks and asians, admittedly usually against their own kind, and the Police get chastised for not doing enough to stop it. However when they carry out spot searches etc then they get accused of racism, they are in a no win situation really.

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Re: Tackling Racism

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The trouble with any demonstration against the status quote is that you will likely attract the violent end of the anarchist spectrum and the extreme left who are after chaos and confrontation. If they can encourage some others caught up in the fervour of the moment to cross the line with them, you have a recipe for sometimes significant trouble.
At the end of the day, trying to stop people pulling the statue of Colston down would probably have caused significant disorder. Far easier and probably cheaper to get a small crane to fish it out of the harbour tomorrow.

I'm not a fan of tearing down statues - to me it smacks of sweeping history under the carpet. If people want to face the darker side of our colonial history, better to have it there with appropriate signage as a reminder and a prompt to think about things. Just knocking it down superficially looks like trying to pretend it didn't happen - or at least there's the danger that people will forget.
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Re: Tackling Racism

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The problem I see with the idea it's a better idea to let them tear down the statue' ( and I understand the reason ) is that it really isn't most people’s idea of law and order.

What else would it be easier not to protect ?
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by Pooneil »

windrush wrote: 07 Jun 2020 23:55I assume that those protesting in Bristol and destroying the statue have never attended any functions at Colston Hall either? That would be rather hypocritical. However I see that the hall is now going to be renamed when it reopens this year, they are asking the public for suggestions. :?
I do know a few people who won't go there because of the name - or at least wouldn't when it was still open. And I think there were a few bands who wouldn't play there for the same reasons. And the intention to change the name is nothing new - it was announced about 3 years ago.

Actually, it was the name of Colston Hall that actually led me to find out about Colston, since it was one of the standard circuit venues for bands in the '80s, that included Leicester de Montfort, Southampton Gaumont, Glasgow Apollo, Birmingham Odeon and Hammersmith Odeon. So I ended up with numerous tour T-shirts listing these venues on the back, and idly did some reading in the library one day to find out where the names came from (clearly Apollo and Odeon needed no explanation, and I was already aware of Simon de Montfort).
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Re: Tackling Racism

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Mayfield wrote: 08 Jun 2020 00:20 The problem I see with the idea it's a better idea to let them tear down the statue' ( and I understand the reason ) is that it really isn't most people’s idea of law and order.

What else would it be easier not to protect ?
It's easier not to protect the speed limit most of the time. See also dog poo, bad cycling, until very recently racist and homophobic chanting at football matches, cars that would fail MoTs, numerous breaches of lockdown regulations...
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Re: Tackling Racism

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Mayfield wrote: 06 Jun 2020 19:52
To be honest we have been watching the Sky coverage of the London demos ...it’s very saddening because a few trouble makers have ruined what was for hours a peaceful, even if not a socially distanced, demonstration. Organisers must know that the violence rather than the cause, is what is likely to be on the front Pages in tomorrow’s press.....it just takes one...( which rather makes me wonder if the one that set off the trouble wasn't somehow encouraged to do so...( .but then I have a suspicious mind.. )
It has been a familiar pattern in both the States and here - the trouble makers tending to come out to play as demos are breaking up.

If you want to see a powerful example of how things have gone out of control in some places, well here's one from NYC.

https://twitter.com/nowthisnews/status/ ... 3437474817
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by Frank Blank »

piwacket wrote: 07 Jun 2020 17:33 ... Reading about the Police and their horses being injured how brave is that? - to attack poor defenceless animals!
They are just despicable louts! ... or Rent-a-mob
There was a bit of collateral damage though too.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1269602754202415106
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Re: Tackling Racism

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piwacket wrote: 07 Jun 2020 22:27
C.A.Versham wrote: 07 Jun 2020 22:22 The policeman in charge in Bristol has said that they did not intervene as it would have led to greater disorder.
Huh! So they gave in to mob violence? :help3:

No, do what this police chief in Webster, MA did and nip things in the bud, just in case it should get to that stage, bless him.

I'm assuming all the kneeling nonsense on the part of police in recent days has largely been nothing more than a PR stunt, but this latest episode takes it way too far. In fact, the images are actually quite pathetic.

https://twitter.com/i/status/1269621251892445186
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Re: Tackling Racism

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How can I support the cause that brings attention to the racism that still exists in this country and wants to stamp it out, and yet at the same time criticise those who took to the streets in a time of emergency? If I criticise, then will I be called a racist, because of the "You are either with us or you are against us" society we seem to live in today. I don't think the street marches were justified at this time in this country, and saying that is a close call, for me.

Violence and destruction is never acceptable and those that march need to recognise that there will be elements that come solely for that purpose. I am not arguing against street marches or large gatherings protests, just that if you go you take some responsibility for what happens by turning up.

The police, who need to look harder at some officers racial attitudes, can't always be expected to get demo policing right. They had to make a judgement about stepping in to stop the statue being pulled down, knowing that it could make things worse and I trust their judgement, and they probably got it right. I don't believe that removing statues and renaming buildings helps the cause much at all. What does help is education, for example about how Bristol was built and how the people who funded it made their money. I suspect Bristol museums do much to put the record straight.
Last edited by MickEdge on 08 Jun 2020 09:37, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by mikejee »

Very sensible comment
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by Voiceoftreason? »

I second that.

Pulling down Statues, no matter what your view of statues is per se, does nothing - except in this case, make a job for someone to fish it out of the water. Numbskulls.
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Re: Tackling Racism

Post by dave m »

Presumably some condemning the horse incident read the "daily mail"?

The police used horses to charge the crowd. Although horses are useful for crowd control, a mounted charge is a dangerous activity for both police and demonstrators.
The police woman lost control of her mount and the horse bolted. She (the officer) hit her head on a set of traffic lights
The first people to give first aid were protesters
But that doesn't fit some papers' narrative

Yes there were some violent elements in the demo- there always are
If a police officer harms a member of the public- it's down to a "few bad apples"
If a demonstrated harms a police officer- all demonstrators are thugs
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