EU referendum

Mayfield · Post by **Mayfield** » 03 Jul 2016 22:33

My father was born in the house rented by my grandmother, his mother moved away leaving him in her care, later he ( and my mother, until my father was demobbed ) looked after her until she died and he took over the tenancy. The landlord died and his children couldn't be bothered with the upkeep of rented properties ( those were the days ! ) so my father bought it, put in a bathroom and then sold it and bought a new build in Cookham for £2750. That was March 1957.....,,in March 2015 we sold it for £405,000.

He always regretted not buying the detached house behind but didn't think he could stretch to the repayments....a fortnight after we moved in his boss died very suddenly and he was promoted so he could have afforded it after all.....we stayed put though. As it was after a couple of years he could see he wasn't making much headway with the capital repayments due to the interest so he went to the bank and changed the mortgage to a loan and paid it off within 5 years......

lizwing · Post by **lizwing** » 03 Jul 2016 23:31

I was just remembering that we could only get a mortgage for 2 and a half times my husband's annual wage and they wouldn't take my earnings into account because, obviously, as soon as we were married I'd be starting a family and giving up my job! I never actually gave up working until 3 years ago. At least it stopped us borrowing more than we could afford to repay.

ReadingBiker · Post by **ReadingBiker** » 03 Jul 2016 23:56

piwacket wrote:
savagethegoat wrote:the reality and the circumstances have changed, I see no problem in another vote to take account of that.

The Leave campaign were caught out with a monstrous lie and chose not to correct it pre-vote, so the vote is tainted, and should be set aside and re-run.

The day after a General Election circumstances will have changed - so does that mean every GE has to be re-run, re-run ad infinitum like Groundhog Day?

If you get a general election "wrong" it is at worst 4 years to put it right, The EU was 40 years between votes

Avis · Post by **Avis** » 04 Jul 2016 05:21

ReadingBiker wrote:
piwacket wrote:
savagethegoat wrote:the reality and the circumstances have changed, I see no problem in another vote to take account of that.

The Leave campaign were caught out with a monstrous lie and chose not to correct it pre-vote, so the vote is tainted, and should be set aside and re-run.

The day after a General Election circumstances will have changed - so does that mean every GE has to be re-run, re-run ad infinitum like Groundhog Day?
If you get a general election "wrong" it is at worst 4 years to put it right, The EU was 40 years between votes

The lies were corrected over and over again but people chose to believe whichever lies fitted their own preconceived ideas.

This is it. This is the reality now. And marches aren't going to change that. I don't see the political will to have another expensive and divisive referendum when this one wasn't even binding anyway. If whatever kind of government we find ourselves with at the end of the year chooses to go ahead, or delay, or ignore the result will be up to them. We won't have any say in the matter.

Personally i would like it to be delayed as long as possible so that I have plenty of time to get my finances in order. But a less selfish view is that it is probably as well to get on with things - the awfulness to come is better faced up to because the current uncertainty isn't making things any better.

Post by **savagethegoat** » 04 Jul 2016 08:09

That's fine and dandy for you, getting your affairs in order, but it's people doing that who will be doing the damage to the Economy by taking their cash and assets elsewhere.

It's the people at the bottom of the pile, who aren't able to do the same as you who will suffer most. Jobs will be lost, new jobs will not be created.

It's no wonder the Young are so mad with the Old. It's their world now and yet the Older Generations keep screwing it up for them.

Post by **C8H10N4O2** » 04 Jul 2016 08:32

savagethegoat wrote:It's no wonder the Young are so mad with the Old. It's their world now and yet the Older Generations keep screwing it up for them.

Is that why the young turned out in such huge numbers?
/s

Avis · Post by **Avis** » 04 Jul 2016 08:36

savagethegoat wrote:That's fine and dandy for you, getting your affairs in order, but it's people doing that who will be doing the damage to the Economy by taking their cash and assets elsewhere.

It's the people at the bottom of the pile, who aren't able to do the same as you who will suffer most. Jobs will be lost, new jobs will not be created.

It's no wonder the Young are so mad with the Old. It's their world now and yet the Older Generations keep screwing it up for them.

Oh it's fine and dandy for me is it? Current guess (because guess is all we can do, but it is an educated guess) is that me and my former colleagues will probably see our pensions cut by half. And none of us are entitled to a state pension. "Getting my affairs in order" is a bit of a euphemism really. What I should have said is damage control.

And what ecactly did I screw up ??? I didn't vote for this mess.

Mayfield · Post by **Mayfield** » 04 Jul 2016 08:53

My feeling is that the leave side talked in such wide generalities that people just fitted their own agenda to them and voted accordingly.

And now we have Conservative party candidates doing pretty much the same....as far as I can see Andrea Leadsom (sp?) would walk us straight out of Europe to WTO trade terms because she, probably rightly, thinks that free trade will mean accepting free movement of people...she says this is a great opportunity, but much of our economy is based on jobs in finance and services and this will be the sector hardest hit...exactly what are we going to export in such great amounts that it will make up for that loss ? And where are those people from the finance sector going to get other jobs
And where are the skilled people coming from to produce these goods when we have been cutting down on apprentiships for the past several years .....

On the other hand if we agree to a similar deal to or way and Switzerland the whole thing has just been an expensive excersise in shooting ourselves in the foot as far as I can see.....

Heads you win, tails I lose...

Please tell me I have this wrong......

Post by **savagethegoat** » 04 Jul 2016 09:13

Avis wrote:
savagethegoat wrote:That's fine and dandy for you, getting your affairs in order, but it's people doing that who will be doing the damage to the Economy by taking their cash and assets elsewhere.

It's the people at the bottom of the pile, who aren't able to do the same as you who will suffer most. Jobs will be lost, new jobs will not be created.

It's no wonder the Young are so mad with the Old. It's their world now and yet the Older Generations keep screwing it up for them.
Oh it's fine and dandy for me is it? Current guess (because guess is all we can do, but it is an educated guess) is that me and my former colleagues will probably see our pensions cut by half. And none of us are entitled to a state pension. "Getting my affairs in order" is a bit of a euphemism really. What I should have said is damage control.

And what ecactly did I screw up ??? I didn't vote for this mess.

Sorry, not intended to be a personal attack on you

Ironically it's many of those people who will suffer most who were duped into voting "Leave".

piwacket · Post by **piwacket** » 04 Jul 2016 09:52

Avis wrote: Current guess (because guess is all we can do, but it is an educated guess) is that me and my former colleagues will probably see our pensions cut by half. And none of us are entitled to a state pension. .

Really

.... Oh, and Mr Goat et al - I don't consider myself "duped" - I made a 'considered' decision ... But then since I was 18 I've rarely relied or been dependent on others to provide what I felt I should or could do for myself .....
In that sense I think many people have just treated the EU and/or welfare state as an easy option not to have to fend for themselves, which of course is very appealing to many in comers too - and before I'm jumped on, I do not mean those who genuinely come here to work, settle and contribute!

Voiceoftreason? · Post by **Voiceoftreason?** » 04 Jul 2016 10:16

PI

Liz-same here Re the mortgage. Outrageous sexism. The younger voices voted out-a natural, free and easy choice for them. They, like us, will make their own way in the world. Their struggle will be equal to our own. It is proportionate and I don't look to them to provide for me. As I said at the very beginning, I take responsibility for myself, my actions and the consequences of my actions. I voted out and never considered any other response. It's done. Now,let's get on with it eh?

Mayfield · Post by **Mayfield** » 04 Jul 2016 10:20

What is it about the Leave team, they win, then jump ship...first Boris now Farage !!!

If they'd have left after a loss, fine ...but this is like walking millions of people up the garden path then abandoning them .....

chris_j_wood · Post by **chris_j_wood** » 04 Jul 2016 10:25

savagethegoat wrote:That's fine and dandy for you, getting your affairs in order, but it's people doing that who will be doing the damage to the Economy by taking their cash and assets elsewhere.

Absolutely. I wonder where Boris will be living ten years from now. Bet it won't be the UK.

I remember he was talking about renouncing his US citizenship; I wonder if he did it in the end. Now that is a thought; phone call Cameron to Obama, "hey Barack, one last favour before we are both history and whilst Guantanamo Bay is still open ... "

Mayfield · Post by **Mayfield** » 04 Jul 2016 10:30

Pi, the problem with your argument is that most EU immigrants do come here to work and contribute...we had 5% unemployment! the lowest it's been for years so where is the hard evidence that immigrants come here not to work but to sponge on the welfare state...? Of course there are always a few cases...but on the whole ? And remember we are not just talking Eastern European immigrants .....

And no one answers, where are the jobs for those made redundant from a finance company or service provider whose presence in the UK us due to it's membership of the EU ? Many just won't have the skill set to change......

Post by **savagethegoat** » 04 Jul 2016 10:51

piwacket wrote:
Avis wrote: Current guess (because guess is all we can do, but it is an educated guess) is that me and my former colleagues will probably see our pensions cut by half. And none of us are entitled to a state pension. .
Really

.... Oh, and Mr Goat et al - I don't consider myself "duped" - I made a 'considered' decision ... But then since I was 18 I've rarely relied or been dependent on others to provide what I felt I should or could do for myself .....
In that sense I think many people have just treated the EU and/or welfare state as an easy option not to have to fend for themselves, which of course is very appealing to many in comers too - and before I'm jumped on, I do not mean those who genuinely come here to work, settle and contribute!

I don't imagine you were duped but it only took 2% of the people who voted to be duped and they, and more, were duped without a doubt.

Lots of people with maybe tunnel vision and lack of intelligence though that the vote was all about getting money back from the EU and improving the NHS. That was shown to be a lie before the vote and the liars chose not to retract it. I'd say there were enough in that category to swing the vote and don't get me started on the people who voted to leave because they thought it would stem the tide of immigrants and can't see the difference between economic migrants, illegal aliens and genuine refugees. It's a flawed vote and should be set aside.

Whitespirit · Post by **Whitespirit** » 04 Jul 2016 10:55

What ARE the brexiters playing? Last Man Standing or something?

This is going from farce to absolute bloody shambles.

Voiceoftreason? · Post by **Voiceoftreason?** » 04 Jul 2016 11:12

Farage is saying he's done what he wanted politically, so he's not got anything more to aim for. If his hearts not in it, may as well go. Sounds reasonable to me - least he's not the PM jumping ship.....

Mayfield · Post by **Mayfield** » 04 Jul 2016 11:34

Left the job half done - there's a whole lot of difficulty to come which he, probably more than anyone else, got us into.....on the bright side he couldn't get any lower in my opinion, and I wont have to watch the irritating little heel rise every time he speaks......

Voiceoftreason? · Post by **Voiceoftreason?** » 04 Jul 2016 11:41

Or Farage either, lol

Mayfield · Post by **Mayfield** » 04 Jul 2016 11:42

Just glad he didn't ever actually click those heels together

piwacket · Post by **piwacket** » 04 Jul 2016 12:50

Hardly likely those po-faced club-wielding MPs are going to either include or even offer Boris or Farage a reasonable job is it?

BTW - someone in the Telegraph yesterday suggested that as Boris was born in the US of A - he would qualify to stand for election as President

Oh and I do wish someone would tell Tony B'liar to s*d off - he's done enough damage to this country

Mayfield · Post by **Mayfield** » 04 Jul 2016 13:03

Oh I expect Boris may still get something after all he is seen as 'the victim' by some who disprove of Gove....

It's OK Boris writing in the Telegraph saying we should all be more positive, but he, and in fact all 'Leavers' need to come up with some good supporting facts before I'll start feeling positive.....

ReadingBiker · Post by **ReadingBiker** » 04 Jul 2016 13:16

I have to say I can't see the logic of a corporation tax cut helping the economy either - surely it just induces companies to retain profit rather than invest in capital equipment

Using exagerated examples to illustrate a point

If you have £1m profit and you are looking at the government taking £250k then by buying a £750k piece of equipment instead you have effectively "saved £187.5k" as you have a £750k piece of kit and paid £62.5k tax with £187k retained profit as capital.

if the corporation tax drops to 10% you are only looking at a £100k tax bill so might be more inclined to pay it and keep £900k in the bank - especially in uncertain times.

So might be good for the goverment (£100k instead of £62.5k) but worse for the general economy as that money is not flowing around the system but instead metaphorically sitting under the matress

Avis · Post by **Avis** » 04 Jul 2016 13:44

piwacket wrote:
Avis wrote: Current guess (because guess is all we can do, but it is an educated guess) is that me and my former colleagues will probably see our pensions cut by half. And none of us are entitled to a state pension. .
Really

....

Yes, really. Not sure why you are confused about it.

Avis · Post by **Avis** » 04 Jul 2016 13:46

savagethegoat wrote:
Avis wrote:
savagethegoat wrote:That's fine and dandy for you, getting your affairs in order, but it's people doing that who will be doing the damage to the Economy by taking their cash and assets elsewhere.

It's the people at the bottom of the pile, who aren't able to do the same as you who will suffer most. Jobs will be lost, new jobs will not be created.

It's no wonder the Young are so mad with the Old. It's their world now and yet the Older Generations keep screwing it up for them.
Oh it's fine and dandy for me is it? Current guess (because guess is all we can do, but it is an educated guess) is that me and my former colleagues will probably see our pensions cut by half. And none of us are entitled to a state pension. "Getting my affairs in order" is a bit of a euphemism really. What I should have said is damage control.

And what ecactly did I screw up ??? I didn't vote for this mess.
Sorry, not intended to be a personal attack on you

Ironically it's many of those people who will suffer most who were duped into voting "Leave".

It is perfectly obvious that you did mean it as a personal attack. I see no other way to read it.

Mayfield · Post by **Mayfield** » 04 Jul 2016 13:59

Avis, Is that because you and your colleagues will be dependent on the exchange rate or other reasons ?

Is anyone taking up your cause ?

piwacket · Post by **piwacket** » 04 Jul 2016 14:16

Avis wrote: Yes, really. Not sure why you are confused about it.

Well I am confused because I understood that everyone who paid 'into the system' automatically received a State Pension?

ReadingBiker wrote:I have to say I can't see the logic of a corporation tax cut helping the economy either - surely it just induces companies to retain profit rather than invest in capital equipment

As someone who had 3 businesses over 30+ years (in Reading) I soon learned after opening the first one as a Limited Company that I wouldn't make the other two 'Limited companies' and pay the government a Tax on our efforts! Having furnished the first one with all the machinery needed to work efficiently, a great many years went by before other equipment needed to be bought. The second business was started by purchasing all the equipment necessary and it being far less complex or 'technical' for that business, even more years went by without needing upgrading - the 3rd business was a by-product of the second with even less actual equipment being used....
I regard Corporation tax in the same light as Inheritance Tax - just a "punishment" for managing one's affairs efficiently so that what one's worked for is shared amongst others not so diligent

piwacket · Post by **piwacket** » 04 Jul 2016 14:23

Well, well - couldn't happen to a nicer man

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/07 ... its-deepe/

Avis · Post by **Avis** » 04 Jul 2016 14:33

Mayfield wrote:Avis, Is that because you and your colleagues will be dependent on the exchange rate or other reasons ?

Is anyone taking up your cause ?

Salaries and pensions of all EU officials and ex-officials are controlled by a protocol in the Treaties. When we leave, the Treaties, and therefore the protocol, will no longer apply to us. What happens depends on the negotiations, and we are a long, long way down the list of anyone's priorities.

There are issues to do with national weightings, taxation, and a whole host of other things. I haven't got to the end of the memo yet!

We have had fairly bland assurances, along "there, there, don't worry, it will be all right" lines, from the presidents of the various EU institutions and agencies. We don't think they are worth much.

No-one, as far as I know, in the UK authorities has expressed any views about it. Many people in the UK would agree to the "one almighty gravy-train on which hundreds of have jumped to grease their own pockets at the expense of anyone and everyone throughout Europe" line which has already been expressed here. As I say, we are low to non-existent on anyone's list of priorities right now.

But we will be fighting our own cause and we have some amazing people in our pensioners' association. So we will continue to hope for the best while preparing for the worst.

ReadingBiker · Post by **ReadingBiker** » 04 Jul 2016 14:36

piwacket wrote:
Avis wrote: Yes, really. Not sure why you are confused about it.
Well I am confused because I understood that everyone who paid 'into the system' automatically received a State Pension?

ReadingBiker wrote:I have to say I can't see the logic of a corporation tax cut helping the economy either - surely it just induces companies to retain profit rather than invest in capital equipment
As someone who had 3 businesses over 30+ years (in Reading) I soon learned after opening the first one as a Limited Company that I wouldn't make the other two 'Limited companies' and pay the government a Tax on our efforts! Having furnished the first one with all the machinery needed to work efficiently, a great many years went by before other equipment needed to be bought. The second business was started by purchasing all the equipment necessary and it being far less complex or 'technical' for that business, even more years went by without needing upgrading - the 3rd business was a by-product of the second with even less actual equipment being used....
I regard Corporation tax in the same light as Inheritance Tax - just a "punishment" for managing one's affairs efficiently so that what one's worked for is shared amongst others not so diligent

OK - I will put it a different way - would a reduced corporation tax have made you as a small business owner more likely to put your hand in your personal pocket and invest in a business in the UK - if the answer is not an enphatic "yes" then I can't see this as a stimulus for the overall economy and really just a way of having multinationals funnel slightly mopre of their profit through their UK subsidiary over a different one. [I know this is a bit off topic form referendum - but is a Osbourn's first concrete reaction economy wise]

Mayfield · Post by **Mayfield** » 04 Jul 2016 14:39

As far as I remember (we stopped trading as a Ltd company last year) Reading T, investing in equipment is deducted before you pay Capital Gains Tax, then that equipment is 'written down' in subsequent years so that you are allowed something for the loss of value each year, before the corporation tax calculation is done.

We were better off paying Corporation tax and taking a small wage plus dividends than we were as a partnership or sole trader....at one time you had to turnover quite a bit to be able to apply to be Limited. Gordon Brown dropped that in order to make it advantageous for those playing' ducks and drakes' with the taxman, to qualify. However I do know that in the past year this has changed so that for many people its a pretty level playing field between Ltd and partnership. Dropping the Corporation tax will make that more attractive again. (Well, that's as I understand it...I'm sure someone will shout if I have it wrong !)

PS: RT, they can funnel all they like AFAIAC, if that funnelling means jobs here, in the UK....

Avis · Post by **Avis** » 04 Jul 2016 14:41

piwacket wrote:
Avis wrote: Yes, really. Not sure why you are confused about it.
Well I am confused because I understood that everyone who paid 'into the system' automatically received a State Pension?

. . . .

Which we did not do because we were not employed in the UK, or by a UK organisation. There are similar systems in place for people who work for other international organisations.

Mayfield · Post by **Mayfield** » 04 Jul 2016 14:42

Am I correct in saying that you could have opted to pay voluntary contributions ?

Of course hindsight is a wonderful thing.......

ReadingBiker · Post by **ReadingBiker** » 04 Jul 2016 14:47

Mayfield wrote:
PS: RT, they can funnel all they like AFAIAC, if that funnelling means jobs here, in the UK....

Look up "Double Irish arrangement" unfortunately it is not about jobs - theoretically the local office can be just a PO Box - we just want to take over Eire's job as the local cheap tax haibitat or more likely the job of the Dutch in the dutch sandwich

Avis · Post by **Avis** » 04 Jul 2016 14:48

Mayfield wrote:Am I correct in saying that you could have opted to pay voluntary contributions ?

Of course hindsight is a wonderful thing.......

Possibly - can't remember. It is all so long ago now. Maybe some people did. But I never thought I would need to!

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