EU referendum

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MickEdge
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Re: EU referendum

Post by MickEdge »

I think you need to apologise to C8H10N4O2, Whitespirit. You seem to have caused him to OD on his favourite bean drink. And just remember, Mr. Duncan was speculating, not quoting. Although, many of us thought Boris's Damascene moment earlier this year was tactical rather than truly visionary.
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Re: EU referendum

Post by chris_j_wood »

MickEdge wrote:Although, many of us thought Boris's Damascene moment earlier this year was tactical rather than truly visionary.
I don't think Boris suffers from the 'vision thing'. If he ever did, Eton obviously cured him of it, at the same time as it was stoking his sense of entitlement.
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Re: EU referendum

Post by chris_j_wood »

C8H10N4O2 wrote:Recent announcements from Brussels of intentions to form some militaristic edict should also ring bells....loud ones, with flashing "panic" lights, ideally.
Absolutely. This may well be the first tentative symptom of the renewed militarisation of Europe that I predicted way back down this thread as a likely long term consequence of a successful brexit campaign.

Since the vote, I've been thinking long and hard about why some people I know and like could come to such different (and to my eyes, wrong) conclusions on this issue. I've been doing a few experiments too, and the results of one of them (admittedly on a far from statistical sample) is quite startling. When challenged as to what they mean by long-term, my brexit-favouring friends tend to say something between one and five years. When I talk about long term, I'm talking about between one and five centuries.

Some of them also, when talking about (say) the first world war, tend say things like "we have learnt our lessons from that" or "we wouldn't do that again". I, on the other hand, don't believe that society truly learns anything. People do, for sure, but people also eventually die, and that learning dies with them. If those people want society to do something like learning from experience, it is down to those people to put in place mechanisms to steer society away from bad forms of behaviour.

That is precisely what the generation that lived through the two big European wars did. They established three interlocking mechanisms, that are now known as the UN, NATO and the EU. In the case of the European part of this, the principal architects of this (Winston Churchill, Robert Schuman and Jean Monnet) were entirely explicit about what they were trying to achieve; indeed the first manifestation, the European Iron and Steel Community, was selected as the starting point precisely because in those days iron and steel were the key ingredients in munitions.

With the second strongest economy now in the process of leaving the EU, and many of the proponents of brexit openly hoping this will kill the EU, one of the three legs of institutional learning is in serious question. Fortunately the UK is less able to damage either the UN or NATO, but they have their challenges too, not least in the form of Donald Trump.

If our generation seriously succeeds in dismantling the work of the Churchill/Schuman/Monnet generation, then that puts us squarely back in the situation Europe was in at the end of the nineteenth century. And we will be hoping that a society made up entirely of people whose grandparents were not even born in 1945 has somehow learnt the lessons of Ypres, Dachau and Hiroshima by some sort of faux genetic osmosis.

I don't expect to still be alive when the balloon goes up in Europe next time around, and I don't have any kids to worry about. But I really hope, for the sakes of you who do, that I'm wrong.
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Re: EU referendum

Post by chris_j_wood »

Pallion is a community of terraced houses (mostly built for shipyard workers) in Sunderland. Yesterday they had a local government by-election. Here are the results:

LDEM: 53.9% (+49.5)
LAB: 34.8% (-15.9)
CON: 5.4% (-7.2)
UKIP: 4.2% (-24.7)
GRN: 1.7% (-1.8 )

If a couple of years ago anybody had suggested that a LibDem candidate could win a seat like that, they would have be laughed right out of court. If they had suggested a near 50% swing, they would have been sectioned on the spot. Wonder what has changed?. :whistle1:

Methinks this years Reading council elections might be more interesting than I thought.
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Re: EU referendum

Post by MickEdge »

It appears the previous councillor, who died, was long serving and the council leader, but even allowing for that, still an impressive LibDem performance. Not such a good result in Falmouth, I noticed. I guess Labour thought they’d walk it and didn’t put the effort in that the LibDems did. It just goes to show what can be done with some effort and presumably a good candidate. British politics needs a a strong third force, particularly as the major parties are so far apart in terms of policy. The LibDems are the only ones prepared to say that the Brexit decision was wrong.
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Re: EU referendum

Post by BOY RACER »

MickEdge wrote: 02 Feb 2018 18:54 It appears the previous councillor, who died, was long serving and the council leader, but even allowing for that, still an impressive LibDem performance. Not such a good result in Falmouth, I noticed. I guess Labour thought they’d walk it and didn’t put the effort in that the LibDems did. It just goes to show what can be done with some effort and presumably a good candidate. British politics needs a a strong third force, particularly as the major parties are so far apart in terms of policy. The LibDems are the only ones prepared to say that the Brexit decision was wrong.
Although you would love to blame Brexit for this result you are way off line. Sunderland a Labour heartland whose hard working people would rather slit their throats than vote conservative. This is about the Labour Party. These people Are staunch solcialists not communists, hence the swing to the liberals and persoanally I would sooner see the Liberals As the second major party than the so called Labour Party.
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Re: EU referendum

Post by Mayfield »

PC 49 ....we agree 🙂
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Re: EU referendum

Post by Laura_Eva »

PC49 wrote: 02 Feb 2018 21:27 Sunderland a Labour heartland whose hard working people would rather slit their throats than vote conservative. This is about the Labour Party. These people Are staunch solcialists not communists, hence the swing to the liberals and persoanally I would sooner see the Liberals As the second major party than the so called Labour Party.
Ha, ha, ha ...

This is a council ward with under 2000 voting electorate, so we are looking at a swing of 500 voters (read into that what you may).

Biggest losers by far are UKIP at minus 25%, and the Tory vote decimated to 5%.

Maybe lots of the active ward electorate work for the one major industrial employer in the area, Nissan, so look for the clear pro-EU party to protect their future ... and a councillor who articulates their interests.

Calling new, new Labour "communist" can only be a compliment ?

What better than spreading our wealth to help those in serious need, for reason of health or poverty ...

Under "Communism" everybody is given equal opportunity to learn and work, and is repaid in proportion to effort, not by some stupid convention that dictates some of us are better than others, by inherited privilege, school, family ...
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Re: EU referendum

Post by Mayfield »

Yes and if only communism actually worked other than in the minds of academics it would be perfect, it doesn't because human nature means that those who work hardest a) want to be rewarded for their efforts b) get tired of supporting the feckless and lazy .
Capitalism has plenty of faults too, nothing is perfect.

Ps new labour is what we had under Blair and Brown, the current Labour elite are just plain old fashioned socialists.
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Re: EU referendum

Post by MickEdge »

PC49 wrote: 02 Feb 2018 21:27
MickEdge wrote: 02 Feb 2018 18:54 The LibDems are the only ones prepared to say that the Brexit decision was wrong.
Although you would love to blame Brexit for this result you are way off line.
You get me wrong. I am much more concerned that the British electorate don't continue to see democaracy as a binary choice, Conservative or Labour.The LibDems are not the best thing since sliced bread, but I do believe increasing their numbers on local councils and in parliament is much more likely to deliver a society which better represents the diverse views and needs of the people. And the Greens message deserves much better representation than just one fine MP.
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Re: EU referendum

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Mayfield wrote: 03 Feb 2018 07:26 Yes and if only communism actually worked other than in the minds of academics it would be perfect, it doesn't because human nature means that those who work hardest a) want to be rewarded for their efforts b) get tired of supporting the feckless and lazy .
Capitalism has plenty of faults too, nothing is perfect.

Ps new labour is what we had under Blair and Brown, the current Labour elite are just plain old fashioned socialists.
That's just about right, except that Capitalism is pretty poor at looking after those who can't work hard and aren't the brightest in society, and it's not good at providing opportunites for those who, through no fault of their own, are dealt a low card at birth.
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Re: EU referendum

Post by buseng »

All this & what's "Maggie May" doing? Swanning it up in China at the taxpayer's expense. Time for a General election me thinks. It's back to the dark ages of 30 odd years ago.
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Re: EU referendum

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buseng wrote: 03 Feb 2018 10:31 All this & what's "Maggie May" doing? Swanning it up in China at the taxpayer's expense. Time for a General election me thinks. It's back to the dark ages of 30 odd years ago.
.... some swanning :roflol3:
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Re: EU referendum

Post by lizwing »

I thought she’d sealed some valuable trade deals, if that’s what comes of swanning around then keep swanning Theresa.
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Re: EU referendum

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As I understand it and if I am wrong I am sure that someone more knowledgeable than myself will put me right. We export some £17 bil per year to the EU but import from them some £45 bil in goods a deficit of £30 bil. May has already swanned around Trump and done a trade deal worth about a third of our trade with Europe. She has now swanned around China and done a trade deal again worth some third of our trade. By my reckoning if she swans around Japan, Russia, Canada, Australia and the emerging nations of India, Indonesia She will easily cover the other third plus and she hasn’t even considered South America, so Mrs May keep on swanning. Suddenly I am beginning to like you.
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Re: EU referendum

Post by MickEdge »

£9 Billion of trade deals with China agreed is the figure I saw. Certainly not swanning around and probably very hard work for our Prime Minister and her entourage, and also very important, especially now. However and not wanting to belittle their efforts, £9bn is pretty small beer, given our trade with the EU is about £240bn, around half our total trade, and China is a huge economy, where we should do well.
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Re: EU referendum

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buseng wrote: 03 Feb 2018 10:31 All this & what's "Maggie May" doing? Swanning it up in China at the taxpayer's expense. Time for a General election me thinks. It's back to the dark ages of 30 odd years ago.
... oh and Buseng - if you're hankering after Comrade Corbyn - presumably you will welcome nationalisation, Strikes, go-slows, possible 3-day weeks and not just neighbours' cars littering your street, but 3 or 4 weeks worth of rubbish sacks (and rats!) - Jimmy Knapp and Arthur Scargill recreations too and so on ad infinitum :whistle1:
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Re: EU referendum

Post by Pooneil »

buseng wrote: 03 Feb 2018 10:31 All this & what's "Maggie May" doing? Swanning it up in China at the taxpayer's expense. Time for a General election me thinks. It's back to the dark ages of 30 odd years ago.
Blimey bus, it's less than 8 months since the last general election - how often do you want one? And if you think May's excursion to China is a significant cost to the taxpayer, I can assure you that it will be a drop in the ocean compared to the cost of a general election.
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Re: EU referendum

Post by dave m »

The PM at the time of the three day week was Edward Heath
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Re: EU referendum

Post by Mayfield »

MickEdge wrote: 03 Feb 2018 07:55
Mayfield wrote: 03 Feb 2018 07:26 Yes and if only communism actually worked other than in the minds of academics it would be perfect, it doesn't because human nature means that those who work hardest a) want to be rewarded for their efforts b) get tired of supporting the feckless and lazy .
Capitalism has plenty of faults too, nothing is perfect.

Ps new labour is what we had under Blair and Brown, the current Labour elite are just plain old fashioned socialists.
That's just about right, except that Capitalism is pretty poor at looking after those who can't work hard and aren't the brightest in society, and it's not good at providing opportunites for those who, through no fault of their own, are dealt a low card at birth.
In a perfect world the taxes on those that can and do would pay for those who can't and help those 'dealt a low card at birth' but life is rarely perfect.
Having said that my father was a Conservative voter and could hardly have been dealt a lower card at birth. His mother, one of six, left him with his grandmother when she abandoned ship and just left him. His grandmother was already divorced and had to take him with her to cleaning jobs in order to make a living. Didn't stop him working hard, earning a good living and owning his own home though....
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Re: EU referendum

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dave m wrote: 03 Feb 2018 16:02 The PM at the time of the three day week was Edward Heath
Oh yes I know - and I was aware someone would pick up on it!
I was no fan of Edward Heath - even less so after meeting him once or twice - but he, and particularly Margaret Thatcher inherited a 'poisoned chalice' from the years of misrule and bad management - just as David Cameron (again not a fan) and etc did after New Labour.... IMO that poster ''Labour's Not Working'' said it all :))
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Re: EU referendum

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Laura_Eva wrote: 03 Feb 2018 06:07 What better than spreading our wealth to help those in serious need, for reason of health or poverty ...

Under "Communism" everybody is given equal opportunity to learn and work, and is repaid in proportion to effort, not by some stupid convention that dictates some of us are better than others, by inherited privilege, school, family ...
... except Communism has been resoundingly proved to not work like that! Communist principles are all very well on paper - but in practice transpire to be just as unfair as you you say Capitalism is. Remember, Stalin and Mao's first moves were to ban, arrest and/or kill learned people, burned books etc... so the poor couldn't improve themselves! The leaders had nice cars (such as they were) dedicated lanes and nice Dachas in the countryside - you have proudly stated how well you've done, probably quite rightly in how you've achieved that status - but do you practice what you preach?

'New Labour' was the 'brain child' of Tony Blair and his cronies - probably one of the greatest hypocrites ever known in politics :holdb:
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Re: EU referendum

Post by buseng »

dave m wrote: 03 Feb 2018 16:02 The PM at the time of the three day week was Edward Heath
I'm talking about the female one of the 80's.
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Re: EU referendum

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buseng wrote: 03 Feb 2018 17:59
dave m wrote: 03 Feb 2018 16:02 The PM at the time of the three day week was Edward Heath
I'm talking about the female one of the 80's.
Yes, I think we all know that :)
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Re: EU referendum

Post by Mayfield »

Bus, just for your information Mrs Mays trip was for work, China is hardly next door and I'm pretty sure the only thing I'd want to do for a few days, given time difference, work including press conferences and negotiations when I got there, flight home and yet another time difference, is put my feet up. Instead Theresa May has been visiting a young enterprise fair in her constituency...she's got more energy than me and a better work ethic than most too

I' m not always keen on her policies but calling it 'swanning around' is hardly fair.
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Re: EU referendum

Post by BOY RACER »

Laura_Eva wrote: 03 Feb 2018 06:07
PC49 wrote: 02 Feb 2018 21:27 Sunderland a Labour heartland whose hard working people would rather slit their throats than vote conservative. This is about the Labour Party. These people Are staunch solcialists not communists, hence the swing to the liberals and persoanally I would sooner see the Liberals As the second major party than the so called Labour Party.
Ha, ha, ha ...

This is a council ward with under 2000 voting electorate, so we are looking at a swing of 500 voters (read into that what you may).

Biggest losers by far are UKIP at minus 25%, and the Tory vote decimated to 5%.

Maybe lots of the active ward electorate work for the one major industrial employer in the area, Nissan, so look for the clear pro-EU party to protect their future ... and a councillor who articulates their interests.

Calling new, new Labour "communist" can only be a compliment ?

What better than spreading our wealth to help those in serious need, for reason of health or poverty ...

Under "Communism" everybody is given equal opportunity to learn and work, and is repaid in proportion to effort, not by some stupid convention that dictates some of us are better than others, by inherited privilege, school, family ...
There is just one Communist Country in the world North Korea. Does that not tell you something. Both Russia and China have taken on Capitalism, they are still dictatorships but not Communist Dictatorships. You honestly expect the UK to become a communist country under chairman Corbyn,
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Re: EU referendum

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Laura_Eva wrote: 03 Feb 2018 06:07 Biggest losers by far are UKIP at minus 25%, and the Tory vote decimated to 5%.
I'm afraid that is a clear case of selected reading. Yes, UKIP were hammered, which given the current state of their party is hardly surprising. And, speaking personally, very gratifying. But the swing from Labour (at 15.9) was significantly higher than that from the Tories (at 7.2).
Laura_Eva wrote: 03 Feb 2018 06:07 Maybe lots of the active ward electorate work for the one major industrial employer in the area, Nissan, so look for the clear pro-EU party to protect their future ... and a councillor who articulates their interests.
That is extremely likely. But lets remember that this was in a region that voted heavily pro-brexit in the referendum. Suggesting an element of cold-feet, to say the least.

With luck, this result will encourage Labour to stop hand-waving and grow some on the subject of brexit.
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Re: EU referendum

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We were sold down the river by Ted Heath by being told it was a Common Market for ease of trading (or some such simple deal)
I've always been bothered by this contention, which I've heard made by a number of people over the years, because it clashed with my admittedly childhood memories of the time. However, finally somebody has done the "hard yards" and dug up a plethora of reports that gainsay this contention. You can read and watch the articles and TV footage on this Twitter thread, but in summary:

The Times 12/4/62: "Cautious approach to political unity urged by Mr Heath"

The Times 13/4/62: "Britain agrees European Community must be political"

Hansard 17/11/66: "May I, first, say something about the European Economic Community. I have used the somewhat cumbersome word "Community", because the Community is so much more than a market. I have constantly felt that the phrase "Common Market" under-estimates and undervalues the Community, and, for this reason, tends to mislead those who have to deal with it. These countries are living and working together, and have made ​ common rules and regulations to cover the whole sphere of their economic lives.
My right hon. and learned Friend the Member for Hertfordshire, East (Sir D. Walker-Smith), as he has so often done in the past, called attention to the question of sovereignty which arises from this, and I believe that he does so quite rightly. We have differed in the past, and no doubt we shall differ again today about it. Those who say that the British people must realise what is involved in this are absolutely right. There is a pooling of sovereignty. Member countries of the Community have deliberately undertaken this to achieve their objectives, and, because they believe that the objectives are worth that degree of surrender of sovereignty, they have done it quite deliberately. Why? Because the original organisations, such as O.E.E.C., which did not involve the surrender of sovereignty, did not produce the answer that was required. They did not produce prosperity, economic growth, or the political purpose that those who created the Communities wanted.
It is important that we should frankly recognise this surrender of sovereignty and its purpose. I, together with most of my hon. and right hon. Friends, have always made it plain that we should approach this matter in the same way. Is it valuable enough for us to go into the Community and be prepared to make the required surrender of sovereignty? This is all set out in detail in the Treaty of Rome, and is governed by that Treaty. I believe that it is worth while."

There's also a televised debate from 1970 involving several MPs (including Duncan Sandys and Dick taverne) who are quite open and welcoming of the developing political aspects of the EEC.

The Times 6/5/70: Heath “We have persevered in this because we see the potential benefits to all in the enlargement of the Communities both in the economic and political domains”.

The Times 9/5/70: Heath “The single most important thing to make an impact on public opinion would be if Europe could speak with one voice on an important problem”.

14/7/70: One month after his election as Prime Minister, Heath’s book is published covering political union in Europe. It covers subjects such as monetary union and defence.

16/1/71 The Times: Heath “There are two parts to our policy towards Europe. First, there is the continuing and hopeful search for a greater political and economic unity”.

25/1/71 The Guardian: Geoffrey Rippon (Heath’s chief negotiator) “What really matters is that we create the sort of political union that Mr Powell himself thought a few years ago to be so necessary”.

13/2/71 The Times: Heath “Politically, the challenge is to create a unity of action which will give our countries collectively that position in world affairs which individually is beyond our reach”.

6/4/71: TV statement - Heath “The world is suddenly realising that the enlarged community is going to be a very, very powerful influence, economically, and then politically.”

7/4/71 The Times: Heath makes a brief statement on his talks with German Chancellor Willie Brandt, stating they had covered, among other things, the further political and economic development of Europe.

29/4/71 The Times: Heath “We are confident that economic unity in Europe can be the foundation of a wider political unity in Europe. That would mean a growing political influence in world affairs…”

20/5/71 The Times: Heath “Do we have the wisdom to achieve by construction and cooperation what Napoleon and Hitler failed to achieve by destruction and by conquest?” and Heath “We have the opportunity of building for ourselves a strong and enduring community in Europe, a Europe steadily growing together in unity and prosperity, and resuming its rightful place in the councils of the nations”.

21/5/71 Televised speech: Heath “President, I have long believed that Europe must grow steadily together in unity, and that Britain should be a part of that wider entity”.

24/5/71 The Times: Franco Maria Malfatti (President of the Commission on the conclusion of Heath-Pompidou talks) But in the long term the importance lay in the agreement between “these two European great powers” for future development of the building of a united Europe.

19/7/71 televised speech: Heath “Now we are about to take the final logical step towards full participation in the economic and political future of Europe, as an equal sovereign member of the European community”.

18/9/71 The Times (in article headlined "Mr Heath sees need for new monetary system") If in this way they could, in the last quarter, of the twentieth century, provide the world with model of a successful political and economic community “then this will not be the least of Europe’s contributions to a sane and civilised world”.

13/10/71 The Times: Dr Barzel [chairman of West Germany's Christian Democratic Union, the WG opposition party of the time] meets Edward Heath at the Conservative Party Conference and makes the statement “We must find a way to European solidarity – in all political fields.”

14/10/71 The Guardian: At the Conservative party conference, Ronald Bell MP paraphrases Edward Heath saying the Prime Minister had said joining as full members means joining the political union.

7/11/71 Sunday Telegraph: It is announced that Heath will attend a summit to discuss the future of the EEC, including monetary union and political union.

22/1/72 The Times: Heath “A Europe coming together in growing unity - historians of all nations have dismissed it as a fantasy for generations. Tomorrow sees it born as a fact.”

22/1/72 televised speech after signing Treaty of Accession: Heath “A beginning of another stage in the construction of a new and a greater united Europe. This is the task that now lies ahead for our generation in our own continent.”

25/1/72 The Times: Speaking last night on the BBC Television show Panorama, Mr Heath left his interviewers no doubt that he has a great vision of a united Europe vying with the super powers to enable the 250 million people of Europe to speak with one voice…”

28/1/72 The Times: The UK government announce they will join the Davignon Committee on which the Political Directors of the Foreign ministries of the six meet to concert their views on foreign policy. “The machinery in embryo for evolving a common European foreign policy”.

23/2/72 The Guardian: Geoffrey Rippon, Heaths chief negotiator, is invited to a pre-summit meeting to discuss foreign policy coordination.“ otherwise known, hopefully, as the Markets political union project”.

20/10/72 The Guardian: Heath says that the community, if it consolidates its monetary and political unity, “will be inevitably forced to consider how it can achieve a common defence policy”.

20/10/72 The Times: Heath “If we wish it to become a major world power, we shall need to be able to concert our actions, and bring our joint influence to bear”…”in the political as well as the economic field. This means working toward a common foreign policy.”

21/10/72 The Times: The Paris summit concludes with the heads of state, including Heath, announcing “European Union”.

21/10/72 Paris Summit tv interview: Heath “Growing closer and closer in every field”. Including financial policy, regional policy, social policy, environment policy, foreign policy, and political consultation. With more policy to be identified in the future.

14/11/72 The Times: Heath “We set out the main lines of advance in each sector, the dates by which each step is to be made, and we set out the ultimate target: union by the end of this decade”.

December 1972 letter published in Illustrated London News January 1973: Heath “The Community we are joining is far more than a common market”.

2/1/73 "Midweek" (BBC-TV): Heath “For what we are building is a community. A community whose scope will gradually extend until it covers virtually the whole field of collective human endeavour”.

3/1/73 The Times: Heath “Our aim in Europe must be to build up our own strength and our own community of purpose across the whole field of policy. Our aim must be that Europe can emerge as a valid partner of the United States in strengthening the prospects for peace…”

4/1/73 The Times: The first thing to be said about creating a European foreign policy, described by Mr Heath this week as “not a luxury for our community but a clear necessity”

5/1/73 The Times: Heath “In all these ways as well as in foreign policy, you will find Britain fully ready and fully able to play a major part”

3/4/73 The Times: Edward Tomkins (British Ambassador) said that European unity did not boil down to a mere mercantile agreement. “For us the Community is a new way of looking at the future – a new European order of a kind to change the history of Europe and even of the world.

14/5/73 The Times: The Congress for Europe 1973 ended at Guildhall yesterday with an address by Mr Heath reaffirming the British government’s support for European union.

15/5/73 The Times: The goal set for the European Community was nothing less than European union by 1980, and this would be speeded by pressures inside and outside the EEC, the Prime Minister stated.

15/10/73 The Times: Heath “Our purpose in meeting together would be to lay down the broad direction of European policy to keep up the momentum towards greater unity in foreign policy”

15/12/73 The Times: In accordance with the decision take at the Paris conference, the Nine reaffirm their intention of transforming their relations into a European union before the end of the present decade.

Now I'm quite happy for people to say they always opposed the EU/EEC and the idea of joining it, but let's not hear again the falsehood that we were sold it simply as a trading arrangement and nothing more and that were tricked or lied to by Edward Heath. Not only was Heath in favour of greater political unity over a decade before we joined, he was quite clear and open about this, and said so many times in the lead up to the 1970 election, and for several years afterwards, up until we joined and after.
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Re: EU referendum

Post by Avis »

Thanks Pooneil - I will look at the Twitter feed when I get time (and it obviously will take time!)

But in the end, the facts don't stand a chance against what people want to believe. If something is said loud enough and often enough (or is written on the side of a bus), and fits with people's prejudices, that is what they will go on thinking, and you won't change their minds.
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MickEdge
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Re: EU referendum

Post by MickEdge »

Thanks Pooneil, for whining on about this, and as Avis says the facts seem to count for nothing these days. Heath gets a pretty poor rating compared to most post-war PMs. I’ve picked out this - Heath: “Do we have the wisdom to achieve by construction and cooperation what Napoleon and Hitler failed to achieve by destruction and by conquest?”. The current PM seems more likely to remembered for destruction and failed conquest.
Frank Blank
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Re: EU referendum

Post by Frank Blank »

From a couple of days ago.

Rather sensibly.......

....."the European Commission is preparing to offer its banks an 18-month extension on access to London’s crucial markets infrastructure as it seeks to prevent a jolt to financial stability when the UK’s Brexit transition period expires at the end of the year.

"The proposals reflect London’s pre-eminence in clearing euro-denominated derivatives, and suggests that financial services are a point of leverage for the UK in increasingly strained trade negotiations with the EU." (source:FT)

The harsh truth for the EU is that 90% of the clearing of Euro denominated derivatives goes through London. If the Commission seriously believes it can significantly reduce its dependence on London in just 18 months then I'm afraid it's blowing smoke out of its arse.
'Let's Go Brandon'
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