EU referendum

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MickEdge
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Re: EU referendum

Post by MickEdge »

I am sorry, jonski, but if we give up on education, we are dead. As sentient beings, I have to believe we can eventually make things better, by nurturing and educating our young. And I say again, leaving the club won't help. It might, just might help us a bit, but not Europe as a whole. Europe taught the world how to kill themselves in vast numbers. Whatever you may think about the Germans and the French, they fully understand the need to work together, to avoid the conflict that infected the 20th century. They haven't and won't always get it right. Merkel on asylum seekers and the euro, but morally I support their efforts. We should not have decided to run away, for economic or political reasons.
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Voiceoftreason?
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Re: EU referendum

Post by Voiceoftreason? »

Mick - the current and probable enduring future threat is unlikely to be from FRance, Germany or Europe.
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chris_j_wood
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Re: EU referendum

Post by chris_j_wood »

Voiceoftreason? wrote:Mick - the current and probable enduring future threat is unlikely to be from FRance, Germany or Europe.
VoT, I'm not sure I agree with that (at least in the enduring sense) but lets just take it as read for now. It is (at least now we have voted out) more a question for future historians than anybody else.

But if we take it as read that there is no current threat from Europe, can we agree that this is in direct contradiction to Digi's original point, which as best I understand it is about the threat to the UK by way the EU encourages terrorism in France and Germany, and may (whilst we remain EU members, but obviously not thereafter) do so in the UK.
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Voiceoftreason?
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Re: EU referendum

Post by Voiceoftreason? »

Once again in plain English p,ease, Chris?
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Re: EU referendum

Post by ReadingBiker »

Digital Toast, in reponse to you pointing out the difference between islamic and islamist I ask you to reread your original post - you did not use the term Islamist but Muslim throughout. That is why we all inferred that you were saying that being Muslim was to blame.

I would also like to ask you to cast your mind back to the 80's when we had IRA attrocities happening on a regular basis - the way they were stopped was by sitting down and talking and being prepared to put the past behind us. I personally thing Adams and McGuinness have a lot of blood on their hands but you can not deny that engaging with them has made NI and the UK a safer place - so why do you suggest we do not do the same with islamist groups ?
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Re: EU referendum

Post by Mayfield »

Mayfield wrote:
Digi, I don't see that Brexit is going to address any Muslim issues in the UK And I'm not suggesting it should, nor does it have any right to. This isn't about Muslims.


You could have fooled me - with every crime you have mentioned their religion....lets start doing that about other crimes too...Thomas Mair for example....and even if you can justify mentioning their religion, shouldn't you be adding the word 'extremist' too.

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MickEdge
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Re: EU referendum

Post by MickEdge »

I certainly wasn't suggesting that we should be worried that Monsieur Hollande and Frau Merkel were likely to be standing on the Calais cliffs and coverting our green and pleasant land. Amusing as the picture conjured up is. They just understand and seek to keep Europe safe from internal and external extremists. Yes sadly, I know they may not seem to have got it right yet. But I'd like to be there helping them. Not outside saying "I told you so". As for talking to terrorists, the example of the IRA was mentioned. However, their leaders saw a reason for talking and something to gain fo those they purported to represent in N. Ireland. I don't see much we can do other than keep our noses out of the Middle East, which we never seem able to do. In Syria, hopefully, talks will help the poor soles that live there, but I'm not optimistic.
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Re: EU referendum

Post by savagethegoat »

MickEdge wrote:Sadly, chris_j_wood, I agree that those that wanted it will suffer most. We might be the 5th largest economy, but I don't think we have enough big companies to raise the money to buy those such as ARM domestically. In the States, they have likes of Google, Microsoft, Apple etc. who can do this. So the assets stay at home. The States are also able to get away with being more protectionist, because of its size and greater self sufficiency. Planes and oil to pork bellies and wheat. As was said, it's been going on for a long time and yet we continue to prosper. Well, in my comfortable corner of the South East. As long as we ignore those who don't live in this little corner the more we will get these little, I mean big surprises. A lot think Jeremy Corbyn is unelectable. I wonder. I just hope the new chancellor has the sense to plough some money away from London. I'm not sure HS2 counts. Better to connect the big cities of the north, to give their economies sufficient momentum.
5th you may be but in terms of wealth per head of population you are around 25th whilst poor old bankrupt Ireland is only 11th. Interesting isn't it.
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chris_j_wood
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Re: EU referendum

Post by chris_j_wood »

Voiceoftreason? wrote:Once again in plain English p,ease, Chris?
I think I was trying to point out that those people who think that it is good us leaving the EU cannot simultaneously believe that

(a) the pro-EU argument that the EU had preserved the peace is wrong because Europe no longer presents a threat to peace (unless I misunderstood, this is your view)

and

(b) that we are better off out of the EU because of the threat it presents to peace in terms of Islamist terrorism (I don't quite get what the EU has to do with facilitating Islamism, but this seems to be digi's view).

I appreciate that you and digi are different people with different views, but some people at least do use both these arguments.

I personally think (a) may be wrong in the longer term, because I suspect the factors that drove WW1 and WW2 are still there below the covers, so to speak. But I have to admit I might be wrong, and now we are leaving we will have to leave that to history to judge.

The whole Islamism thing just makes me think we need to work as closely as possible with the rest of Europe to protect everybody. Now we are leaving the EU, we will have to find other vehicles to do that, but I think it would have been easier and more effective if we had stayed in.

I hope that makes it clear.
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Voiceoftreason?
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Re: EU referendum

Post by Voiceoftreason? »

Must be the heat. I'm still not sure I understand but here goes....

I dont believe being part of the EU (or not being part of it) affects the UKs safety in terms of war being more, or less, likely based on our membership of the EU.

I don't believe being part of the EU increases or decreases the UKs safety in terms of any kind of terrorist.

I do believe that open borders and uncontrolled free movement of people, represents an increased terrorist threat.

I d believe that war is more likely to emerge from the Middle East, Russia and/or China or their involvement (interference? Support?) in a third country such that conflict erupts, than, say, Germany or an EU country, will ignite a war on its own.

I do believe that the world is under threat from extremists (choose your religious group as you will) and finally, I do believe that uncontrolled migration across borders is facilitating this threat.

Not a very sophisticated argument I'm sure you'll say.
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Re: EU referendum

Post by chris_j_wood »

Voiceoftreason? wrote:Must be the heat. I'm still not sure I understand but here goes....
It is a bit sticky, isn't.
Voiceoftreason? wrote:I dont believe being part of the EU (or not being part of it) affects the UKs safety in terms of war being more, or less, likely based on our membership of the EU.
Not immediately, certainly, but I worry longer term. As indicated above.
Voiceoftreason? wrote:I don't believe being part of the EU increases or decreases the UKs safety in terms of any kind of terrorist.
I agree.
Voiceoftreason? wrote:I do believe that open borders and uncontrolled free movement of people, represents an increased terrorist threat.
I agree.

But as our EU membership had a permanent opt out of the Schengen agreement (the European open borders treaty), our leaving will probably make no difference to our borders. Anybody entering the UK from within or without the EU will still be subject to precisely the same border checks as at present.

I say probably because the EU are likely to insist on membership of Schengen as a condition of free trade, just as they did for Switzerland and (I think) Norway. Of course whilst Theresa is PM that will most likely mean we lose free trade than we join Schengen, and she may be able to negotiate for us to keep our exemption. But if not, she won't be PM for ever, and who knows what come next.
Voiceoftreason? wrote:I'd believe that war is more likely to emerge from the Middle East, Russia and/or China or their involvement (interference? Support?) in a third country such that conflict erupts, than, say, Germany or an EU country, will ignite a war on its own.
I agree. And if it is an external agressor, then NATO comes into play rather than the EU.
Voiceoftreason? wrote:I do believe that the world is under threat from extremists (choose your religious group as you will) and finally, I do believe that uncontrolled migration across borders is facilitating this threat.
I agree. But just think that having friends and allies is a better way of combatting this than trying to do it all by ourselves. Of course there are differences in priorities and approaches between mainland Europe, with its long and difficult to police land borders, and the UK, with mostly a nice easy(er) to police sea border, but I don't think any EU country is in favour of uncontrolled migration.
Voiceoftreason? wrote:Not a very sophisticated argument I'm sure you'll say.
No I wouldn"t. All valid points, even if my views differ. :-)
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Re: EU referendum

Post by savagethegoat »

you didn't look far DT, here is one example, if you google you'll find a lot more

http://www.worldsrichestcountries.com/

here's wiki

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_c ... per_capita
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Re: EU referendum

Post by Mayfield »

According to Mathew Parris in today's Times the Nice terrorist called himself an atheist ..... :whistle1:
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Re: EU referendum

Post by C8H10N4O2 »

Every bombing on mainland Britain for 20+ years was carried out by Irish groups.
Real bombs, real people dying, etc...I missed being involved in the mess of the Harrods bomb myself by just 20 minutes.

I didn't, thanks goodness, hear anyone blaming ALL Irish, whether they called themselves IRA, INLA, RIRA or whatever else, or making any sectarian distinctions (except in the press) between Catholics or Protestants.

Why is it therefore ok to blame all Muslims, every one of them, for the actions of a minute number of individuals (not even fanatics), brainwashed into thinking they achieve some higher goal and will be rewarded in ...what for Christians would be Heaven?

The Western world has people that will do such things for mere pieces of paper ("greenbacks") in the here-and-now, which frankly, I find far more sordid.
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Re: EU referendum

Post by savagethegoat »

please note that those bombings were largely carried out by UK terrorists with Irish links. Northern Ireland is part of your country and the paramilitaries of both extremes were largely UK citizens. UK politics are as much to blame if not more than the Irish are.
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Re: EU referendum

Post by savagethegoat »

jonski wrote:
savagethegoat wrote: in terms of wealth per head of population you are around 25th whilst poor old bankrupt Ireland is only 11th.
jonski wrote:Hmmm, what figures are you using? By every single measure, median, net or mean, the figures are significantly at odds with your claim according to Wikipedia OECD List of countries by wealth per adult
savagethegoat wrote:you didn't look far DT, here is one example, if you google you'll find a lot more http://www.worldsrichestcountries.com/
That is indeed one example, which doesn't give a source for that data, but does indeed show Ireland at 11 and UK at 27 in the column marked "GDP per capita based on population size". You then give a link to the statistics for purchasing power parity (PPP) calculations, which wasn't what you said originally.
in the three columns there, the UK appears at 9,10,9 with Ireland ranked 59,59,60

So you started by saying that UK is 25th vs Ireland at 11th for wealth per head of population. You then redirected me to a site based on GDP per capita based on population size to backup your figures (different to what you first said), and another source of data for purchasing power parity calculations, which is, again, different to wealth per head of populations.

Um, what am I actually supposed to be looking at here? Are we just comparing apples and oranges, or are we mixing a bit of chalk and cheese in too?
I copied the wrong wiki link evidently, i'll let you continues researching, but several sources I found showed that per capita the uk is worse off than Irelands.
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Re: EU referendum

Post by savagethegoat »

something wrong with that wiki link....try this as an example

http://statisticstimes.com/economy/proj ... anking.php
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Re: EU referendum

Post by C8H10N4O2 »

savagethegoat wrote:please note that those bombings were largely carried out by UK terrorists with Irish links. Northern Ireland is part of your country and the paramilitaries of both extremes were largely UK citizens. UK politics are as much to blame if not more than the Irish are.
To be clear, Goat, I was merely analogising in respect of "threat"...there was no intent to rake over cold coals. :)
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Re: EU referendum

Post by savagethegoat »

C8H10N4O2 wrote:
savagethegoat wrote:please note that those bombings were largely carried out by UK terrorists with Irish links. Northern Ireland is part of your country and the paramilitaries of both extremes were largely UK citizens. UK politics are as much to blame if not more than the Irish are.
To be clear, Goat, I was merely analogising in respect of "threat"...there was no intent to rake over cold coals. :)
it perpetuates the myth that these terrorists were "Irish" rather than acknowledging that it was a UK problem being carried out by largely UK terrorists. Loyalist terrorists would have been entirely UK citizens of course.
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Re: EU referendum

Post by C8H10N4O2 »

jonski wrote:
C8H10N4O2 wrote:Every bombing on mainland Britain for 20+ years was carried out by Irish groups.
Indeed it was. If it's numbers you're after, over the course of the 28 year period of the troubles, an average of 65 civilians per year were killed. In the current wave of Islamist terrorism in Europe (trying to drag it back to the subject at hand regarding Brexit), 115 civilians are being killed per year. Now.

Guess what? They used to nail people to crosses. They used to dunk people they thought might be witches. That's also in the past, and we can't do anything about the past. But we can heed the warnings of the now, and change the future.
C8H10N4O2 wrote:Why is it therefore ok to blame all Muslims, every one of them, for the actions of a minute number of individuals
It's not. Do you see ANYONE doing that, here at least?
Well, to be frank, Digi, you appear to be, and I'm not the first to "see" it judging by previous posts.

There is no competition for which misguided set of people took the most lives or created the greatest threat.
There is also no comparison between the psychology of the separate threats, and it is woefully simplistic to think that there is, even remotely.
"We" think Glory and Survival in a combat scenario, "They" think "give everything, your life is a little, ephemeral, thing".
There is zero, absolutely zero, comparison in the methodologies of terror we face being employed whenever back then, as opposed to today.

If I, and those others, have misunderstood your message Digi, now is probably the time to clarify your position...
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Re: EU referendum

Post by C8H10N4O2 »

savagethegoat wrote:
C8H10N4O2 wrote:
savagethegoat wrote:please note that those bombings were largely carried out by UK terrorists with Irish links. Northern Ireland is part of your country and the paramilitaries of both extremes were largely UK citizens. UK politics are as much to blame if not more than the Irish are.
To be clear, Goat, I was merely analogising in respect of "threat"...there was no intent to rake over cold coals. :)
it perpetuates the myth that these terrorists were "Irish" rather than acknowledging that it was a UK problem being carried out by largely UK terrorists. Loyalist terrorists would have been entirely UK citizens of course.
Largely valid, I concede and concur.
However, since I very specifically mentioned that the "Irish" stigma was not made/attached, your further protest comes across as too much.
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Re: EU referendum

Post by MickEdge »

Another plank the Brexiteers built their case around breaks.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-36852805
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Voiceoftreason?
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Re: EU referendum

Post by Voiceoftreason? »

Trump. Ah yes, there's probably a dictionary definition that says "windbag" somewhere. Allegedly.
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Re: EU referendum

Post by MickEdge »

Unless you are a card player, the definition of trump that springs to mind is: "the breaking of wind". And as my dear old father was fond of quoting "Where e're you be let your wind go free, for that was the death of me", which he said could be found on a gravestone. My mother however, never felt this was a reasonable excuse. There's no excuse for Donald.
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Re: EU referendum

Post by ReadingBiker »

Well I have to say I am another who from your posts would conclude that you are a fairly xenophobic person whose default position with regard to Islam is that all muslims are prospective terrorists until proved otherwise. If that is not you position that I too think you may want to consider carefully how you put forward your true position.

I agree if xenophobs voted Brexit it in no way follows logically that brexit voters are xenophobes - no more than saying most women voted for univeral suffage therefore all who voted for it are women (extreme case to prove point). BUT you have to agree that one of the biggest campaigning points by several leave campaigners - was take back control of our borders - stop the jonny forgeigner coming onto our shores and either stealing all our jobs or sititng on the dole taking all our benefits/housing (delete as applicabnle depending on the politician in question). No mention of the fact that a trade deal is likely to leave us no better of border control wise than previously and despite us having very low unemployment and so a need for people (unless the economy tanks of course)
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Re: EU referendum

Post by ReadingBiker »

jonski wrote:
ReadingBiker wrote:whose default position with regard to Islam is that all muslims are prospective terrorists until proved otherwise.
Can you show me any clear evidence to back that claim up, or are you merely reading with your own prejudices?
ReadingBiker wrote:If that is not you position that I too think you may want to consider carefully how you put forward your true position.
Again, show me where I've said that and I'll clarify it for you.
ReadingBiker wrote:
This post of yours comes across that way (please find me any evidence or even a news story of a thousand women being gang raped by immigrants and asylum seekers) -

"As I typed my reply yesterday, news was breaking of a young Muslim asylum seeker who had been hacking infidels to bits on a train in Germany.
As I type my reply today, it has been confirmed that a Morrocan Muslim stabbed a mother and her three young daughters in France for being "too lightly dressed".
This comes a week after 85 people were mown down by a Muslim immigrant in Nice in the 4th large attack by Islamists in France in the last year, just months after up to a thousand young women were gang raped across Europe by groups of immigrants and asylum seekers.
There is now expected to be at least one large atrocity in Europe each month.

There are some who vocally welcome this "diversity" and want even more of it. There are I suspect, however, many more who don't want to commit cultural suicide and live their lives in fear of the next truck, bomb or knife in the name of religious fascism."
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Re: EU referendum

Post by ReadingBiker »

You specifically said "gang raped" which is several orders of magnitude away from sexual assault - Rape is usually taken to mean penetration without consent
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Re: EU referendum

Post by mikejee »

There were a hell of a lot of "semantics" going on before the referendum. Much of these "semantics", if the truth is told, were more accurately described as plain lies, and the majority of these (though not all) came from the exit side.
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Re: EU referendum

Post by ReadingBiker »

That is what I was going to say but I thought it would just inflame things at the time.

I think the referendum / brexit seems to have boiled down to 1 question of balance - do you think the economic turmoil and likely recession v possible world/non EU trade deals are a fair price to pay for a possibility fo reducing immigration

The Brexit side downplay the net ecconomic cost / upsell the ability we will have to control immigration

The remainers are pessimistic as to the ecconomic cost and either see no value in changing immigration control or do not think it will happen.

I sit in the 2nd camp others sit in the 1st but sadly I feel by the time we know who was definitely "right" it will be too late to do anything and the country will be well and truly fractured.
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Re: EU referendum

Post by Whitespirit »

ReadingBiker wrote:That is what I was going to say but I thought it would just inflame things at the time.

I think the referendum / brexit seems to have boiled down to 1 question of balance - do you think the economic turmoil and likely recession v possible world/non EU trade deals are a fair price to pay for a possibility fo reducing immigration

The Brexit side downplay the net ecconomic cost / upsell the ability we will have to control immigration

The remainers are pessimistic as to the ecconomic cost and either see no value in changing immigration control or do not think it will happen.

I sit in the 2nd camp others sit in the 1st but sadly I feel by the time we know who was definitely "right" it will be too late to do anything and the country will be well and truly fractured.
:goodposting:
+1
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Re: EU referendum

Post by chris_j_wood »

ReadingBiker wrote:That is what I was going to say but I thought it would just inflame things at the time.

I think the referendum / brexit seems to have boiled down to 1 question of balance - do you think the economic turmoil and likely recession v possible world/non EU trade deals are a fair price to pay for a possibility fo reducing immigration

The Brexit side downplay the net ecconomic cost / upsell the ability we will have to control immigration

The remainers are pessimistic as to the ecconomic cost and either see no value in changing immigration control or do not think it will happen.

I sit in the 2nd camp others sit in the 1st but sadly I feel by the time we know who was definitely "right" it will be too late to do anything and the country will be well and truly fractured.
:goodposting: +2
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Re: EU referendum

Post by chris_j_wood »

Austrian police are, as I write this, being deployed to Munich to assist the local forces with the latest outrage. Just a little example of how we are stronger together rather than apart.
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Re: EU referendum

Post by piwacket »

chris_j_wood wrote:Austrian police are, as I write this, being deployed to Munich to assist the local forces with the latest outrage. Just a little example of how we are stronger together rather than apart.
It may be simplistic - but to me Austrian = German. And it is only 50 miles away. If we were being attacked in Earley I'd hope those in Woodley may come to our aid - not expect those across the water in Caversham - equally simplistic reasoning :wink:

Nevertheless another sad loss of life tonight :(
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Re: EU referendum

Post by C8H10N4O2 »

The reports have all emphasised Bavarian, making your point all the more valid, Pi....but would Surrey come to Berkshire's aid, I wonder? ;)

Whilst I feel entirely comfortable that Chris would not intentionally do so, his comment seemed to come across as scoring points from tragedy.

With that segway, and in the name of perspective, it's probably worth pointing out that whilst the carnage and cascading distress caused by these atrocities is simply dreadful, incidents, deaths and injuries from "terrorist" events in Europe remains considerably less than the figures for domestic gun crime in USA.
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Re: EU referendum

Post by chris_j_wood »

C8H10N4O2 wrote:Whilst I feel entirely comfortable that Chris would not intentionally do so, his comment seemed to come across as scoring points from tragedy.
Well I am sorry if it did come across that way, but I cannot honestly see how. My comment said nothing about the causation of this tragedy (not least because we still don't know), but merely talked about the practicalities of the response. Nor did it particularly seek to score points; I'm fully aware that there are many ways of skinning the "working together" cat and the EU was but one.

If we cannot talk about things like this without seeming to be "scoring points from tragedy" then we are truly so far into the "those who fail to learn from history are doomed to repeat it" syndrome that we are most probably doomed.
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