EU referendum

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piwacket
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EU referendum

Post by piwacket »

Whether you want to remain or leave this long video makes interesting watching especially about the history and the running of the EU

I have to admit that due to its length of film, I have only watched a small section of it......:)

There's no such thing as a free lunch
Horsey

Re: EU referendum

Post by Horsey »

Brilliant post Dorothy, saved me the job.

You've also indirectly made another good point that most people are in complete ignorance of the reimit and power of the EU.

And it is without coincidence they are the same people who either wish to remain or would like to have the same level of control over the lives of others themselves.

You know how the progressive bigots worship their entitlement culture.



Everybody should watch this film.
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Re: EU referendum

Post by Whitespirit »

Horsey wrote:Brilliant post Dorothy, saved me the job.

You've also indirectly made another good point that most people are in complete ignorance of the reimit and power of the EU.

And it is without coincidence they are the same people who either wish to remain or would like to have the same level of control over the lives of others themselves.

You know how the progressive bigots worship their entitlement culture.



Everybody should watch this film.
What patronising rubbish. What a pathetic, sweeping generalisation about how much those who support the UK remaining know about the EU.

Why is it that small minded nationalistic bigots like yourself are unable to understand why others disagree with their narrow minded viewpoints.
Horsey

Re: EU referendum

Post by Horsey »

There is no viewpoint more narrow minded than from people who have an ideological belief in the political class and that they all know what is best for society and that we should have no democratic means of removing them or resisting their means to regulate our lives, and all the touchy-feely, PC b*ll*cks that comes with it.

That's not to say I think YOU have a small mind, I've just always been under the impression that you are mentally sub-normal.
Horsey

Re: EU referendum

Post by Horsey »

And it is a great film

Everybody should see it.
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OLDMAN
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Re: EU referendum

Post by OLDMAN »

Ignoring my own views the biggest problem I see with anything like this is its either hard and fast one way or the other - and conjecture

No-one appears to have publicised anything independent, with constructive evidence, of 'pros and cons' which would really help those who just don't know what its about
Oldman........

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they annoyed me........................

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It’s not affection, I’m just measuring up how big a hole I need to dig for the body!
Horsey

Re: EU referendum

Post by Horsey »

That's because there aren't any pros and cons.

In the Remain campaign are perpetuating a counterfeit line propaganda of financial doom, because they know full-well they don't have one solitary cogent argument to mask their own self-interest. Only the ones with the most to lose are making a noise about staying in. Apparently the banks who triggered the last recession with their own criminal mismanagement and subsequently had to be bailed out with public taxes are now telling us we will slide into the the gutter for sure, and David Cameron tells us that they are credible.

And as for blaming the the third world war on us leaving, is about as rancid as it gets.

The EU and the EU only alone have put the wheels in motion for yet another, now inevitable global conflict. It's their mess entirely.
D6equj5

Re: EU referendum

Post by D6equj5 »

Whitespirit wrote:
Horsey wrote:Brilliant post Dorothy, saved me the job.

You've also indirectly made another good point that most people are in complete ignorance of the reimit and power of the EU.

And it is without coincidence they are the same people who either wish to remain or would like to have the same level of control over the lives of others themselves.

You know how the progressive bigots worship their entitlement culture.



Everybody should watch this film.
What patronising rubbish. What a pathetic, sweeping generalisation about how much those who support the UK remaining know about the EU.

Why is it that small minded nationalistic bigots like yourself are unable to understand why others disagree with their narrow minded viewpoints.
I object to this name-calling.
Horsey

Re: EU referendum

Post by Horsey »

He belongs to the progressive left Dave.

Name calling and labelling others as bigots and racists is their only standpoint. When it comes to sensible, well-constructed debate, they don't have anything to bring to the table.

They know it too.
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windrush
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Re: EU referendum

Post by windrush »

T'is the same on every forum I frequent when this topic was first raised, those wishing to remain are subjected to insults and abuse from those choosing to leave the EU wheras the 'remainers' in most cases just state their reasons without resorting to those type of remarks. It certainly seems to have divided the nation, and shown the true colours of a few people that I had previously thought of as sensible and moderately tempered in personality. Very scary.:?

Pete.
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ReadingBiker
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Re: EU referendum

Post by ReadingBiker »

Horsey wrote:Name calling and labelling others as bigots and racists is their only standpoint. When it comes to sensible, well-constructed debate, they don't have anything to bring to the table.
And this wasn't name calling / labelling then

Horsey wrote:That's not to say I think YOU have a small mind, I've just always been under the impression that you are mentally sub-normal.
Horsey

Re: EU referendum

Post by Horsey »

Nope


I used the word bigot as a generic term in reference to a demographic of ideological brainwashed half-wits whose particular brand of inclusive social mediocrity I find dangerous and quite disturbing. He used it as a direct personal insult.

Perhaps he felt my use of the word bigot related to him personally: only he would know why that might be.


I also happen to think he is mentally sub-normal.
Horsey

Re: EU referendum

Post by Horsey »

It's true what I said about living in ignorance. This thread has had bugger all hits for the three days it's been here, yet the one repsonse I make is predictably pounced on by the clique, enthusiastically pursuing their horse-hate agendas. How many of you have watched the film?

This is one of the most important decisions that will have to be made for the future and stability of the next ten generations.

Typically those who wish to remain, only seek to derail the topic, by any means necessary.
Horsey

Re: EU referendum

Post by Horsey »

windrush wrote:T'is the same on every forum I frequent when this topic was first raised, those wishing to remain are subjected to insults and abuse from those choosing to leave the EU wheras the 'remainers' in most cases just state their reasons without resorting to those type of remarks. It certainly seems to have divided the nation, and shown the true colours of a few people that I had previously thought of as sensible and moderately tempered in personality. Very scary.:?

Pete.

Actually the opposite is true Pete. You show me one item of "careful reasoning" that isn't hyperbole. Good luck with that.

I can't believe you have even intimated that the internet isn't awash with a pantheon of sentient discussions from people making intelligent arguments to leave the EU, and they are the ones being labelled as hatemongers and far-right. This discussion has been going on for years, where have you been, why are you all only talking about it now?


Whether or not you are for or against (and you are definitely for) it is obvious to me you have not looked hard enough.
Horsey

Re: EU referendum

Post by Horsey »

We can start with something simple today then move up daily

This is far-right, BNP,Nazi, hater Pat Condell. It's his usual shtick but it will give you some idea

https://youtu.be/vGQIxYfKKtc
ReadingBiker
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Re: EU referendum

Post by ReadingBiker »

I will give you a bit of reasoned thinking.

I have a degree in economics and the main thing it taught me is that there are 2 diametrically opposed theories behind macro economics - monetarism and keynesianism. If you are hard line one way then input x gives result y - at the other extreme then input x gives result -y.

Therefore I am taking all economic arguments with the largest pinch of salt possible as I know even I could write out a reasoned logically correct argument for positive or negative results for any particular input.

Once you ignore the macro economic side it comes down to how you value individual industries (some will be better off form brexit some worse off ) and how much you believe we will be able to call Europes bluff whilst negotiating an individual trade deal to not get hit with the exact same rules as a trading partner as we get as a member. All goods will stay the same as big manufacturers will only want to make an EU model not an EU and a UK model (so we will still get lower power hairdryers etc).

Sp it all comes down to subjective rather than objective tests and thus personal "gut feel" rather than being able to rationally work it out.

My personal viewpoint is that I would rather scale back the power of the council of ministers and it's advisor's dramatically and make more eu decisions have to be voted on by the actual democratically (ish) elected MEP's (preferably with a qualified majority and individual country opt outs for anything important) but I would not leave as I am too unsure of the effect and better the devil you know.
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windrush
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Re: EU referendum

Post by windrush »

Horsey wrote:

Actually the opposite is true Pete. You show me one item of "careful reasoning" that isn't hyperbole. Good luck with that.

I can't believe you have even intimated that the internet isn't awash with a pantheon of sentient discussions from people making intelligent arguments to leave the EU, and they are the ones being labelled as hatemongers and far-right. This discussion has been going on for years, where have you been, why are you all only talking about it now?


Whether or not you are for or against (and you are definitely for) it is obvious to me you have not looked hard enough.
Only talking about it now because it has been posted on here and I spotted it this morning! I don't believe anything that is said on either side, I have never trusted any politician and never will! I haven't decided whether I am 'in or out' but those who want out seem to think (to me at least) that things will be all Hunky Dory and the future will resemble some kind of utopia. Those who want to stay are obviously content with their lot. In reality we have absolutely no idea what will happen, we could be just as easily jumping from the frying pan into the fire and until it occours (and polls, forums and windbag Farage tell us it will :-) ) then we will be committed like it or not.

Personally I can't see that things will change much, there is much made of the fact that we will be saving millions of pounds by not being in the EU but I have my doubts as to where all this money allegedly saved will actually go. Past experience in life makes me sceptical about it being used in the UK on the NHS etc, I reckon that it will just get swallowed up somewhere in assisting some other nation in trouble or other 'worthy' causes. Likewise I can't see immigration changing much no matter what folk say, folk have been coming here from other lands for 100+ years (including my family) and as long as they earn their keep I have no issue with it. If not then send them back, we have plenty of homegrown freeloaders here already who will never work as long as they have a hole in their backside. Business people in my area appear not keen on leaving the EU, and it is they who pay workers wages. It makes very little difference to me at my time of life anyway, at 65 I have had a good life with a reasonable living standard and I will just accept that whatever happens is the will of the majority, though it wont be the first vote to be 'doctored to suit' so the true result may never be known of course! :wink: Believe nothing and trust nobody, that's little old me.

Pete.
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Re: EU referendum

Post by piwacket »

windrush wrote:it wont be the first vote to be 'doctored to suit' so the true result may never be known of course! :wink:
Pete.
Sadly Pete, I'm of the same opinion and the whole lot of them are ''crying in the wind'' - being seen to being done :shrug1:

I do feel very strongly about the situation, and am convinced we were ''sold down the river'' by Heath originally - then compounded by Major and underlined by Blair.

Thanks Horsey for at least looking and commenting - and yes, I too think this film is worth looking at, if only to make one stop and think :? But please, everyone, keep the comments polite and refrain from name-calling! :)

As was said, this is a one-off opportunity to try to correct the situation (''correct'' being my analysis) - but, as also said, there's a dearth of actual facts being put forward in order to make a properly judged decision.... assuming that it just may be conducted fairly.......
There's no such thing as a free lunch
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Re: EU referendum

Post by mikejee »

A very sensible comment Windrush. To my mind one should look at who it is who wants to leave and why. :
Gove, who has made a complete mess up in his present job and who believes the EU will have to go along with what we want after Brexit !!. Tell that to
the fairies.
Johnson. A clown who says what he thinks people want to hear and ignores,hides reports that might hurt him (as evidenced today with the 5 year old report on pollution at London's schools), and doesn't even pretend to denyb that his main aim in life, whatever it costs the country, is to be prime minister.
Jacob Rees Mogg. the only one of the Out campaign who seems to speak with honesty, from his point of view. But his point of view is somewhat mired in Victorian England, and he probably would like to still have an empire.
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Re: EU referendum

Post by Whitespirit »

Horsey wrote:He belongs to the progressive left Dave.

Name calling and labelling others as bigots and racists is their only standpoint. When it comes to sensible, well-constructed debate, they don't have anything to bring to the table.

They know it too.
Erm, which hypocritical idiot used the term bigot first in this thread? hint, it wasn't me.
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Re: EU referendum

Post by Whitespirit »

Horsey wrote:Nope


I used the word bigot as a generic term in reference to a demographic of ideological brainwashed half-wits whose particular brand of inclusive social mediocrity I find dangerous and quite disturbing. He used it as a direct personal insult.

Perhaps he felt my use of the word bigot related to him personally: only he would know why that might be.


I also happen to think he is mentally sub-normal.
I have a degree in pure and applied physics. Carry on idiot, keep the personal insults up and make yourself look even more stupid.
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Re: EU referendum

Post by Whitespirit »

windrush wrote:T'is the same on every forum I frequent when this topic was first raised, those wishing to remain are subjected to insults and abuse from those choosing to leave the EU wheras the 'remainers' in most cases just state their reasons without resorting to those type of remarks. It certainly seems to have divided the nation, and shown the true colours of a few people that I had previously thought of as sensible and moderately tempered in personality. Very scary.:?

Pete.
I can't be bothered to reply to the idiot anymore, I'll leave them to make themselves look even more foolish with ad hominem attacks that show them for what they are.

But can someone show me which leaver went for the Godwin argument and raised Hitler? No hyperbole there was there. Truth is the leavers are scared, they know they have lost the argument comprehensively.
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Re: EU referendum

Post by dave m »

Boris repeated the "bent bananas" myth today
Is that the sum of his knowledge?

People should remember that BJ was fired as a journalist for making up stories.
He says anything that comes into his head and then denies saying it or claims misquote.
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Re: EU referendum

Post by Mayfield »

Mostly my OH and I vote differently politically but we agree on this - we'd prefer to stay in. As our children will be living with the decision a great deal longer than us we asked them their preference - they both want to stay in. Selfishly as a pensioner I don't fancy spending the next 10 years or so with things being unsettled either.

In addition the 'out' option would mean a huge step into the unknown, yes, the out group reason x or y would be the case, but no one actually knows... :whistle1:

I also fear that many people don't know the difference between the European Court of Human Rights and the EU and that leaving one may not mean leaving the other (although I believe that some politicians would like to do that as well )

Knowledge is power and sadly facts seem to be a bit thin on the ground.
C8H10N4O2

Re: EU referendum

Post by C8H10N4O2 »

I've always said it is companies that sell and buy, not politicians.
It is companies that know the markets in which they trade, and they do not need governing in either establishing or continuing that trade beyond a legal framework.
This was nicely highlighted in the film by showing Switzerland's burgeoning economy.

Another well made point in the film was how protectionism has resulted in inferior goods and higher prices within the zone thanks to EU regulations, further, well performing organisations within the zone have been crippled by blanket tariffs and quotas on imported raw goods.

And on the subject of quotas, how about the utter decimation of our fishing fleets, and handing the fish stocks to other EU nations to then sell back to us !?

Finally, remember the Magna Carta?
Increasingly a worthless piece of paper when faceless, unelected, unanswerable bureaucrats in another land are handed our freedoms ...and, by the way, increasing amounts of our taxes, both personal and corporate.

A closed system of trade has never prospered anyone but those controlling it.
Why do "Team Remain" think the EU to be any different when throughout the zone, economies are stagnated, but outside are not?

And again from the film, why are the EU desperate for us to stay?
(If you didn't watch the film, clue : count the Audi/VW/Merc/BMW cheaply-produced cheese populations on our roads, for example)
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Re: EU referendum

Post by Mayfield »

Oh believe me - I don't think the EU is in any way perfect however the chances of changing it from the outside are zero...and I see no advantage to being like Norway or Canada and paying but having no say.

Additionally should Trump be elected in the USA I would rather not be an isolated minnow in the sea....despite NATO etc. my gut feeling is we would be better off as part of a bigger Club.
C8H10N4O2

Re: EU referendum

Post by C8H10N4O2 »

On the "from the inside"...aside from the concession to Thatcher on farming subsidies (a token, and rumoured only to be to shut her up), the EU has declined just about every amendment ever proposed by UK.
We have, exactly, ZERO democratic influence on the EU...they make the rules, we cannot contest, and we demonstrably cannot even influence them, period.
We are a subsumed nation, and we will only ever regain both our dignity and our economy by leaving this racketeering "club".

I understand the fear of change, and I understand the (slightly paranoid) philosophy that suspects "all those billions" will go, as they have under EU control, to everything OTHER than the benefit of UK citizens ... but actually, by regaining democratic control, we, The People, get to return to kicking out those (properly elected politicians) that don't spend it where it's needed, such as in heavy-industry export investments, ensuring (self-)sustainability of food stocks (farming, fishing, etc) and focussing on our current reliance on oil processing for the majority of our GDP.
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Voiceoftreason?
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Re: EU referendum

Post by Voiceoftreason? »

This may be my one and only ever post on a political subject, so I'll keep it brief.

UK. Sovereign Nation.
'Nuf said.
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Disclaimer: it wasn't me as wot said it, it was my iPad spellchecker!
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OLDMAN
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Re: EU referendum

Post by OLDMAN »

Voiceoftreason? wrote:This may be my one and only ever post on a political subject, so I'll keep it brief.

UK. Sovereign Nation.
'Nuf said.
:goodposting:
Oldman........

God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to hide the bodies of the people I had to kill because they annoyed me........................

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Yola

Re: EU referendum

Post by Yola »

Heart: Leave
Head: Remain

Just need to reconcile the two ...
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piwacket
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Re: EU referendum

Post by piwacket »

Voiceoftreason? wrote:This may be my one and only ever post on a political subject, so I'll keep it brief.


:clap2: ... But no worries, it's not political anyway.
There's no such thing as a free lunch
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Re: EU referendum

Post by Mayfield »

Yola wrote:Heart: Leave
Head: Remain

Just need to reconcile the two ...

I think a lot of people feel like that....
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piwacket
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Re: EU referendum

Post by piwacket »

Mayfield wrote:
Yola wrote:Heart: Leave
Head: Remain
Just need to reconcile the two ...
I think a lot of people feel like that....
My heart tells me to leave, and as I've never ever been a EU-rophile and consider we were sold 'down the river' by Ted Heath my mind is made up. A remark by Cameron a few days ago that if we leave then countries in Europe could declare war on us, sounded to me more like a 'threat' worthy of the Kray twins -" pay up or we'll trash your house and beat you up"
A chap on the Jeremy Vine show the other day summed it up - quiet well-spoken chap who said his Grandad who fought in WWI and II will be turning in his grave at what Britain has done, and is doing in even considering staying in the EU.

The biggest problem IMO is the defeatist attitude of those who wish to Remain? almost reminiscent of Chamberlain. "Anything for a quiet life" Where are those with the "we can do " spirit that once made Britain Great? It is so easy to just stay with the status quo, sit back and be walked all over rather than striving to regain some of what this country once stood for? OK - I realise we'll never get that all back, but at least we could reclaim our Sovereignty and rule ourselves to a greater degree...
Mayfield wrote:Oh believe me - I don't think the EU is in any way perfect however the chances of changing it from the outside are zero...and I see no advantage to being like Norway or Canada and paying but having no say.
Whilst Germany is in charge of the EU, with France on its coat-tails (as ever) neither the UK, nor anyone else, will amend anything to do with the EU :roll:
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D6equj5

Re: EU referendum

Post by D6equj5 »

Voiceoftreason? wrote:This may be my one and only ever post on a political subject, so I'll keep it brief.

UK. Sovereign Nation.
'Nuf said.
:goodposting:
Horsey

Re: EU referendum

Post by Horsey »

Steven Woolfe is a marvelous orator: logical, unflappable.

He would make an excellent prime minister


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=72Jsa7oSv8s
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